Women in Science From Antarctica to Mars with Judit Jimenez Sainz and Tiffany Vora

(00:06 - 00:15) Felicia Jadczak: Hi, and welcome to the She+ Geeks Out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work making the world a better a brighter place.  I'm  Felicia. (00:15 - 00:29) Rachel Murray: and I'm Rachel.

(00:29 - 00:30) Felicia Jadczak: Let us tell you.

(00:33 - 00:37) Rachel Murray: Felicia, why don't you take the first one and I will take the second one.

(00:37 - 01:20) Felicia Jadczak: I will be more than delighted to do so. So Tiffany Vora holds key roles as Vice Chair of Digital Biology at Singularity University and she's a faculty at EY Tech University. She's dedicated to advancing women in STEM fields. She actively contributes to initiatives like Homeward Bound and Humanity in Deep Space. She has a rich academic background in biology and chemistry, including a PhD from Princeton University. Tiffany is deeply committed to mentorship and diversity, recognizing their pivotal roles in driving innovation. Her expertise spans a wide range of disciplines from CRISPR to space biology, and she's passionate about translating cutting-edge science into practical solutions for societal advancement.

(01:20 - 02:14) Rachel Murray: Judit

(02:14 - 02:53) Felicia Jadczak: NBD. We have so much to get into with this conversation, but before we do that, really quick question for our listeners. Did you know that we have a ton of resources available online? If you didn't, or if you haven't looked recently, check them out at sgolearning.com. And if you want to learn more about ways to mitigate bias in the workplace and the world, we have got you covered. So you can go ahead and sign up for our mailing list at shegeeksout.com forward slash podcast for free access to our mini course on women plus at work, creating a gender inclusive workplace. And then you can also learn more about what else we have to offer, which spoiler alert is a lot.

(02:53 - 03:33) Rachel Murray: It's a lot. It's a lot. We've been busy over here over the past 10 plus years. Okay, before before, this is the final thing, we promise we will get to this interview, but very quickly, we just need something that we need to talk about it. So Dune has been out for about a month-ish. We've both seen it. We want to just briefly touch on it because it is almost everything is, I feel like, related to the work that we do. So, of course, we use that lens, right, when we talk about it. And, you know, I was saying to Phylicia before we started recording how I was like, oh, the white savior stuff, you know, with Timothee Chalamet is kind of a lot. But then you wisely shared your thoughts.

(03:35 - 04:33) Felicia Jadczak: I don't know if wise is the right way. But as I was telling Rachel beforehand, I've just been bombarded with memes and discourse and all sorts of people talking about Dune and Dune II and the music and everything. And I have not read the books, but I have absorbed a lot of knowledge about them over the last couple of months. So what I was saying around that whole idea is this is what I do think is really interesting. And it is making me want to read the books, which is the idea that It's sort of subverting the white savior trope because Frank Herbert basically is like Paul doesn't want to be the white savior and he's being knowingly propped up as the White Savior. And then, you know, again, if you haven't seen Dune II, please just skip ahead for, I don't know, like a couple minutes so you don't get any spoilers. But for anyone else, spoiler time, you know, he drinks the worm juice and then he's like, never mind, I am the Messiah.

(04:33 - 04:34) Rachel Murray: How it was, how it is.

(04:36 - 05:01) Felicia Jadczak: So, you know, I mean, I'm I'm interested because I do think that it's a very easy and maybe even like a lazy way to create a movie being like, look at this amazing person who is going to lead us to paradise. And I do think the story is a bit more subtler than that, where it's like, no, he doesn't want to do this, but he's being forced or is he? I don't know. So I am interested in that dynamic to it. Like, I definitely feel like I need to rewatch the movie again.

(05:02 - 05:31) Rachel Murray: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it's a beautiful movie just to I mean, it was so I'm so happy that you're on the big screen for sure. Absolutely. We went to an IMAX theater. It was the sound and the visuals were absolutely stunning. And yeah, I mean, it's it's also about, you know, it's all about power, which I'm into is, you know, just getting rid of getting rid of those evil, just those evil people up atop. trying to crush the spirits for capitalism.

(05:31 - 06:30) Felicia Jadczak: But who is evil, right? And I do think that's the interesting question because if you think about it, you could probably make a strong argument that the Bene Gesserit are somewhat evil because they create this breeding program for 90 generations just to like basically prop up this messiah character where they can take over with power right so like that's not cool because i mean we were laughing beforehand because i was like my favorite thing about dune 2 is Javier Bardem just basically every five seconds being like and it's like the memes are hilarious because it's like oh he like sneezes he's the messiah it's like he's he's doesn't he says he's he's not the messiah look at him only the true messiah would be so humble I think there's it's so interesting, right? Because basically, like this group of women have been like, oh, so then this guy's going to like jump on a worm. So FYI, your prophecy, you're going to have some dude who's going to jump on a worm.

(06:30 - 06:45) Rachel Murray: It's interesting. It really is. And how much the how much power of power is visible versus invisible, though, the what's sort of been done behind the the literal veil that they all wear, you know.

(06:46 - 06:49) Felicia Jadczak: Well, you know, and again, oh my God, we'll probably talk about this for days.

(06:49 - 06:51) Rachel Murray: Which we won't, we promise. We're going to stop and get to the interview.

(06:51 - 07:58) Felicia Jadczak: We won't, I swear. But I did have an interesting thought that came to mind when you just said that because in the first movie, do you remember the scene where, again, I can't handle names, Jessica is walking. to the new planet and she's wearing that like veil, like mesh veil outfit, like when they first come to Arrakis and they're like coming in. So she's kind of, yeah, she's like basically like she's fully veiled. It's again, the costumes, the scenery, it's gorgeous. She's wearing this like mesh chain mail thing on her. And I didn't catch this, but one of the things that I consumed basically told me that It was to indicate her status as a concubine, and she wasn't Leto's wife. And I had not caught that detail. And so I found that really interesting. And then obviously, they do reference it in the movie, but it just sort of went over my head. But I thought that was really interesting because her position is she's a concubine. She's not married to him. He says at one point, I wish I would have just married you. But she's very powerful.

(07:58 - 07:58) Rachel Murray: Very powerful.

(07:59 - 08:18) Felicia Jadczak: been a Jesuit. She's got the voice. She's been engaged in this breeding program thing, which whatever again, but you know, like she does have a lot of her own agency and power. So I thought that was an interesting juxtaposition, given what you just said around, like, how do we perceive power and what is power and how does that play out?

(08:18 - 08:24) Rachel Murray: Totally. Oh my gosh. We should have a whole episode on. Maybe that'll be a bonus episode. Oh, I love that for us.

(08:25 - 08:32) Felicia Jadczak: But we have other things to talk about. Let's talk about some powerful women who are not TV, movie, book characters.

(08:32 - 08:35) Rachel Murray: I think that's a great idea. On to the interview.

(08:38 - 09:16) Felicia Jadczak: Judit

(09:17 - 09:33) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Thank you much for this invitation and hello, everybody, right? So I'm originally from Spain, as you can tell by my pronunciation, most likely. So I'm from the north of Spain, a small region called Rioja, like the best wine. Yeah. Okay, great.

(09:33 - 09:36) Rachel Murray: Definitely start my wine later. Literally had some last night.

(09:36 - 10:28) Judit Jimenez Sainz: So, yes. Yeah. So, yes, I was in Spain for almost 17 years. So, I grew up in the north, and then I moved to the Mediterranean coast, to Valencia, to do my undergrad in biology and biochemistry, and then I continued there because the weather was awesome and I did have a lot of fun. So, I continued there doing my PhD. As well, during my PhD, I was involved in a European initiative, so I was able to go to University College London and a few other institutions in Europe. In 2013, I decided to cross the Atlantic Ocean and came to U.S. I was in the northeast of U.S. for almost 10 years at Yale University. And then recently, in 2023, I moved to the south of U.S., United States, South Carolina, and now an assistant professor in the Medical University of South Carolina.

(10:29 - 10:38) Felicia Jadczak: Love it. Love a good concise origin story. We're going to get deeper into that for sure. But let's switch over to you, Tiffany. And what is your origin story?

(10:38 - 12:42) Tiffany Vora: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me to share my story. So I'm American. I guess you can hear that in my voice as well. I moved around a lot when I was a kid. My father was a chemist at the time. And so he would change jobs working for small chemical and pharmaceutical companies. So moved around a lot when I was a kid. But I went to high school in New Jersey. I did my undergrad at NYU studying biology and chemistry, also piano, but that's neither here nor there. Then I went and I worked at a pharmaceutical company for a bit. And then I did my PhD at Princeton in molecular biology and NASA actually funded my graduate student research, which was great. And while I was at Princeton, I also did three analogs Mars simulations. So let me know if you want to talk about Mars. Super excited to talk about that. And then after I finished at Princeton, I took a job as an assistant professor at the American University in Cairo. So I lived in Egypt for two years. That was before their revolution. And then in 2009, I moved back to the US. I came to the San Francisco Bay Area, which is where I live now. I taught for a bit at Stanford. I started my own science communication company. And I started working at a place called Singularity University, which at the time was like an alt education think tank. And also there was a venture arm. And so I've spent the last few years going around the world, talking to people about technology and the future. I care the most about the biotechnologies, but I'm really interested in anything biotech touches, which, frankly, is everything. So that's amazing. These days, I'm also a policy fellow at a nonpartisan think tank in Washington, D.C. I work with large businesses around the world as well as small startups. And I'm delighted to be working with women and people of color who are interested in STEM careers. And the last thing I'll just mention is that I'm the VP of Innovation Partnerships at Explore Mars, which is a nonprofit looking to see a sustainable human presence on Mars in the 2030s. So lots going on. I promise there's a through line. I'm sure we'll get to it.

(12:43 - 13:42) Rachel Murray: Wow. So you both, you know, no big deal, just like doing a lot. And there's a lot to get into here. We want to do it. The first question I wanted to ask, and we will get to the Homeward Bound voyage, is your current work. So we did a little bit of internet stalking and learned a little bit about what you're doing. And it seems I wanted to sort of connect a little bit about what you both are working on. You both seem to be focused on the intersection of biology, how tech can improve our health. UD, your work is focused on DNA repair and cancer research. Tiffany, one area of the many that you mentioned is you're focused on is lifespan and how technology can support it. I'm personally kind of a geek about it. I wear an aura ring. I think about lifespan and healthspan a lot. I think it's a really fascinating topic. I'm wondering how, if you would be open to sharing how you see technology supporting us as we age, and I'm sure we'll have a lot more questions, but we'll start with that one.

(13:44 - 14:37) Tiffany Vora: I'll go first. So I think technology is necessary but not sufficient for us to be living long, healthy lives. What's exciting to me is that these days, being in the life sciences, there has never been a better time to be a biologist. The things, the tools, the processes, the communities, the collaborations that we have now are so much more powerful than anything we've ever had before. I can't think of anything more exciting. But I think it's a mistake for us to think that we can innovate our way out of all of the challenges that we have, because a lot of it has to do with who we are as people, how we see ourselves in the world, how we bring ourselves into the world, and what kind of world we want to create together. So like I said, I think technology is a big part of the answer. But to me, technology is not the answer. It's one of the tools that we can use to get to the answer.

(14:37 - 14:37) Rachel Murray: Beautiful.

(14:37 - 15:57) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Thank you. Yeah, so just to add that technology, as Stephanie was mentioning, is helping us a lot. We can do things now with AI that we weren't able to do before, right? So that's helping us as a society, as scientists, and as well as clinicians and patients. So I just have to say that thanks to the technology innovation that has happened in the last five to 10 years, we can look at things that we wouldn't even anticipate. I would say technology is one of the major tools and resources that we have in our hand. Again, we can ask and think about solutions in a very creative way by creating new technology. I would just add to that because I think we are in an era that we are seeing almost every day how technology is just exploding. And that's happening in the lab. And that's happened as well in patients in our population. We couldn't even imagine that we would look our genome in the cell phone, right? And now we can look at all the sequence that we have, or DNA that we have in our cells, just in our phone. That's pretty cool. And I have to say that without technology, I don't know what we would do, but I'm sure we would be okay.

(15:58 - 17:07) Rachel Murray: I would imagine we would probably die a lot sooner and be a lot sicker. If it's okay, Flusha, I'd love to just follow up. I don't know if you're familiar with Brian Johnson. I was just listening to an interview with him and happy to Talk about that, but he's basically a billionaire who's decided to spend a lot of his time and money on living as long as possible. He believes that he can live to 150 years, which maybe, I don't know. But I think that it's really interesting you have Brian Johnson and then you have someone like Elon Musk who's really focused on Mars, which Tiffany that brings into that piece as well. I feel like there's some connection about this idea of How can humanity just continue on whether that's our own bodies or evolve to somewhere else? I'm just sort of curious what your thoughts are on these lovely billionaires doing all of this work. And this is a very safe space. Neither of them will probably ever even know this podcast.

(17:07 - 17:11) Felicia Jadczak: We definitely trashed billionaires before and nothing has happened to us so far.

(17:12 - 19:01) Tiffany Vora: So, I mean, I have, oh my goodness, so many thoughts about this. So, look, I mean, I think it's really important that we have folks who are willing to sink in the money, to be the early users, to be the evangelists, to get out there and try these things. Now, am I interested in a world where billionaires live long, healthy lives and everybody else goes on the way they are? No, absolutely not. And that is a future that worries me a lot. That's a possible future that worries me a lot. They're not just billionaires, they're males, they're white, they come from a particular part of the world. Again, I'm very grateful for the work that they're doing shining a light on this, but this is not the end of the story by any means. This is the beginning of the story. We talk a lot about technology and how we can use technologies for longer, healthier lives. We've got to remember that there's still a lot of low-hanging fruit that could benefit so many people around the world. I once was giving a talk with a group of Brazil's largest healthcare providers. And they said to me, look, what should we be investing in? Is it CRISPR? Is it stem cells? Is it sequencing every genome in our country? You know, what is it? And I said, honestly, you should send a box of vegetables every week to every family in your plan. I'm like, I don't know, I know that's not what you want to hear, but we have not saturated access to healthy food, healthy air, healthy water, healthy cities, education, birth control, childcare, like there's so much more that we have the opportunity to do. Yes, as a molecular biologist, I absolutely light up when I think about technology and innovation and all this amazing stuff. But man, there's so much more we can do for so many people as well. To me, it's not an either or, it's a yes and.

(19:01 - 19:03) Felicia Jadczak: We love a good yes and here at SGO.

(19:03 - 19:06) Rachel Murray: We do. And that was beautifully said. I'm like, preach. Yes. I know.

(19:06 - 19:07) Felicia Jadczak: What about you?

(19:10 - 21:09) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, so I mean, when I see those kind of cases, I say, go for it, right? Everybody has money, and I want to put it in this kind of big project, complex project that we don't know about it. And then we don't know as well if that money is going to be rescued. That's good. Let's go for it, right? If that information gets available for many of us, that will be useful, right? We will create new ideas, new projects will come, and we don't know what is coming at the end. So, for sure, everybody that has money that want to spend in this crazy project, go for it. So, I will call today Elon Musk and say, hey, do everything that you want. On the other side, as Tiffany was saying, right, there are a lot of prescriptions, right? We go to the doctors and we want that magic pill that will kind of increase our lifespan, but not many doctors or not many of us think, you know, can we exercise daily? as simple as just going for a walk in nature. Again, it's not an exercise that you're going to go to the gym only. It's just you're going to go nature. You're going to connect with your environment. You're going to maybe ask your neighbor if they have a garden that you can grow together and get some tomatoes, lettuce, and then eat what you are getting. I think going back to a few generations back where maybe they didn't have that many resources, but their lifespan was pretty high. I mean, I don't know. If you have cases in your family, but if I look at my grandparents, my great-grandparents, they all lived pretty, pretty long, and they didn't do anything special, and they didn't have that much technology. They just were eating healthy, moving around, and having healthy relationships. Sometimes we forget that's a big, important pillar. And technology, again, it's a good one, it's a bad one, right? Your phone, we have it every day. I'm not sure how healthy is that for our mental health. So again, big shout out to small things, and as Stephanie was saying, hanging fruits, that they are really, really tasty and they are very easy to get.

(21:10 - 22:08) Felicia Jadczak: I love that you just described the low-hanging fruit as really tasty, because I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about it that way, but I'm like, yes, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Love it. And I feel like there's sort of a balance, right, between the stuff that's easy and delicious and the low-hanging fruits of the world and the harder problems which you're both working on. Tiffany, I wanted to actually follow up with you on your cancer research areas that you're invested in because I would love to hear a little bit more about beyond these billionaires spending their money in whatever ways they want to. And beyond the things like eating healthy and all the stuff you just mentioned, what do you see sort of in the future or as like the next wave in your line of work? Like, is it vaccines? Are we close to curing cancer? You know, and both of you mentioned technology as a tool. So I'm curious sort of how, you know, that plays into it.

(22:10 - 25:18) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, so in my case, what I work is with the molecule of life, DNA, as many of you know, and how DNA every day gets more than a million mutations or changes, right? And how there are many repaired proteins that they get to that DNA, they grab it and make sure that that DNA is in good shape. So, it's well known that those repaired proteins, when they are mutated, they induce high predisposition to cancers. The ones I'm focusing on, because as well I belong to that important group, is female cancers, right? So, breast and ovarian cancers, that they are due to just a repaired protein that doesn't work. So, we know the case of Angelina Jolie. She has a family history of breast and ovarian cancer. In her 30s, she found out through genetic testing that she had a bad mutation, and she went on and did a double mastectomy and removal of ovaries, and then many reproductive changes at that point, as well as female hormonal changes. So, what we are trying to get at, and I think we're going to see it, is to get a better preventive way to not impact female reproductive situations of the productive life, that when a patient comes in or a person comes in and it gets a genetic testing, we will get better results. in terms of clear, so we know what to say to the patients. And right now, there are 50% of the patients that we don't know what to say, because there is no enough technology information about how those repair products are doing. So first, telling the patient for sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing what they have, that means that they're going to have higher cancer risk. And second, as well, can we think creatively in ways that we can give maybe some changes like treatment, preventive surgery, but partial that will still be okay for a female standpoint in the reproductive life. So I see that coming, and I think now it's coming because, as well, there's a big pressure for all the companies that they collect genetic testing, in particular in the US, but in other countries, that they will release data soon. So that will be important for researchers, that will be important for the clinicians and for patients. Right now, there's a big question still in the cancer field. that we need to understand and is the function of all these proteins. Talking about the cure, I think we've seen many and many cases just in a single sentence that they become chronic. So that means we have more kind of a whole deck of cards with different treatments. So we can diagnose better a tumor type and we can as well target it better with different therapies. And that's what it is. It's called precision medicine and it's kind of take cancer or take a patient with all the conditions that my patient that patient might have and then apply treatments and approaches specifically to that patient. So we are getting there. And I think the next 10 years will give us a lot of answers.

(25:19 - 25:58) Rachel Murray: That's so informative and I think a lot about also diagnosing early on too, getting the treatment, getting diagnosed early and then getting the treatment. And with our healthcare system, it's so challenging because the way the insurance is set up, it's hard to even get diagnosed early on because you end up having to pay out of pocket for it. I don't know if you've seen, there's a couple of companies now that when you're, and I'll be turning 50 next year, so it's top of mind for me, for 50-year-olds, you now have access to actually getting tested for like everything.

(25:58 - 27:18) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yes. So again, depending on the state that you are in, the country that you are, the one that now in South Carolina, they have a program that is called Our South Carolina DNA. I mean, anybody that wants to be tested can be tested. So I'm being tested. Many people over the age of 18. So that's a very precious data, and that's in partnership with a company. MUSC, so the Medical University of South Carolina, is a big partner there, because then we can get information. Again, you're kind of bringing a big kind of balloon, I call it. It's all the money that in this country is put into insurance and health system and all that. And that's a big watermelon that we can open at some point. But it's true that the beauty of the United States, the technology is here, and the seek for the information it is. There's a big motivation for that. So it's happening. I mean, right now as well, there are genetic testing companies that they can test at the same time two more DNA together with germline mutations, like if your family may have it. So there's a lot of things going on. And again, it's going super, super fast. So it may change from today to tomorrow. But yeah, good question there.

(27:18 - 27:57) Felicia Jadczak: I'm like so annoyed that we had both of you on at the same time, because I feel like we could spend three hours for each of you. There's more to get into, but I want to put a pin in it for now and switch back over to you, Tiffany, because I want to circle back to the Mars work that you're involved with. I feel like on the flip side of the coin, that's your big, not really low-hanging fruit there. I had a flippant question, which I'd love to ask you. We mentioned earlier Elon Musk and going to Mars. You mentioned that you've done a couple of analog trips to Mars. Do you think that maybe he's spending his money in the wrong place and he should just be doing some analog trips first to prep for whatever happens in the future?

(27:57 - 30:29) Tiffany Vora: Oh man, so many things to say there. So I, you know, I think analog trips are really, really useful. And there's a bunch of them going on around the world right now. You might've heard NASA actually just put out their call for their last year, the most recent year long simulation that's going to happen. And a friend of mine texted me that, and he's like, you're going to apply, right? And I was like, yeah, let me explain to my husband and my son why I'm going to go away for a year. But you know, when I saw it, I was like, wow, I know the person who runs the company that made the 3d printed habitat. And I know some of the people who are doing crew support. So like, this is this is the community, right? I mean, it's in the name of science, right? I mean, I think it's in the name of humanity. So I think the bigger question that you asked, you know, kind of flippantly here is like, why do this at all? Why bother doing any of this? Why do the analogs? Why do the real thing? And, you know, I get asked all the time, why should we spend money on space when we have so many problems here on Earth? And to me, that's a false choice, because solving problems for space makes life on Earth better. Specifically, in my mind, space is fundamentally a sustainability problem. So anyone out there who's listening, if you're working on clean energy, clean water, water, clean air, synthetic biology, sustainable food, personalized health, robots, AI, like any of these things, please reach out to talk to me. Because this is what the future of space is. It's not just rockets. It's not just satellites. It's not just astronauts. It's all of the things that we need to not just survive off Earth, but really thrive there and to thrive there for decades to come. So I say, I mean, I'm biased, obviously, but I think that we do spend this money now, because by spending money now, we're solving our problems here on Earth, and we're looking further into the future. We're coming up with new jobs, new industries, new economies, new ways to harness the creativity and the collaborations of people, specifically young people, but all over the world to make this happen. And that's why the choices that we make today about this are so important. So again, do I want Elon Musk to be the first human on Mars? No, I want Tiffany Bora to be the first human on Mars. But if Elon is going to spend the money to get us there faster, safer, and to convert those things into prosperity and peace for people on Earth, spend your money, my friend, and call me because I can help.

(30:29 - 31:22) Rachel Murray: Oh my God, Tiffany, I've got so many questions. You're blowing my mind because I'm definitely the person that is like, I do not understand why billions of dollars are being spent to, we just learned to settle on Mars when there's so much money that needs to be spent correctly here on this planet. And I'm just thinking about just, you know, simple things like the way we do agriculture here on earth, right? We do it horizontally. Why are we not doing it more vertically? Well, I don't know. And I just feel like if I had billions of dollars, I would be spending money on that to make sure that everyone gets the vegetables that they need to live longer. So how does that like, Am I taking crazy pills thinking that way? I feel like I'm limiting my mind and your mind is like, I'm in the singularity.

(31:22 - 33:37) Tiffany Vora: So it's not crazy pills. I mean, most people I would say would think that I'm the one who's crazy, but just because I'm crazy doesn't mean I'm wrong, right? So no, I don't think you're crazy at all. Now that's an interesting question because You know, we're all socialized and educated to think particular ways about particular problems. And over a human evolutionary history, that has made a lot of sense, right? Focus on the thing that's right in front of you. Focus on the linear change that's happening that lets you predict based on yesterday what tomorrow is going to be like. The problem is those models don't work for us anymore because of technology, because of innovation, because of the way all these things are moving together and coming together. Just the barriers coming down between the living and the non-living world changes everything. And we've had tens of thousands of years of culture teaching us to think a particular way. What got us to today is not gonna get us to tomorrow. So I'm not saying I'm right about everything, but at least Rachel, I'm hoping you're gonna hang up on me today and go home like to your family and say, oh my gosh, I had this crazy woman on and she wanted to talk about Mars and living to be 150. Oh my gosh, we're not ready for any of those things. And hey friends, what are you gonna do to be part of that? That's also the exciting part. I mean, for me, one of the great joys of being part of the space community is joy. Is joy, right? If you've ever hung out with space nerds, we're so nerdy. So nerdy all the time. And it makes me feel so happy. Like, I actually realized an hour ago that I had forgotten to check on the schedule for the lunar landing that's planned for today. And I thought about pulling my kid out of school to watch it. Because if it goes, this is the first U.S. landing on the moon in decades, almost 50 years, and the first commercial landing ever. That's fantastic. Like, that's pull-your-kid-out-of-school worthy, because I want him to talk about it for the next hundred years. There's just, there's so much here, and there's so much innovation, and so much opportunity, and so much agency, and so much community and collaboration. It's awesome.

(33:38 - 33:52) Rachel Murray: We're going to have to have a side chat, because I feel like I need to have more conversation. But I do want to give you a little context. You're talking to someone who gets upset about fireworks. I'm like, that's a waste of money when there are people that are starving. Why are we doing fireworks? So that's where I'm coming from.

(33:52 - 33:58) Tiffany Vora: But these are really, really big fireworks. They're the biggest fireworks.

(33:58 - 34:24) Rachel Murray: The biggest ones. Yeah. So appreciate and I can hear the passion and enthusiasm. So I just want to say thank you so much for sharing that. And yeah, I would love to have a follow up conversation with you for sure. Because I need more convincing. I'm just gonna put out there. I just need more. I'm your girl. And I want it. I want give it to me. But not now because we have other things that we need to discuss, which I will turn off over to Felicia.

(34:25 - 34:55) Felicia Jadczak: Well, I will say for me, when you said that line, Tiffany, about like, you know, solving problems in space will help us solve problems on earth. Like you got me, so you do not need to convince me further. Um, but let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the Homeward Bound program. So what I would love to hear from both of you is how you both got involved in this program and anything you'd like to share about your experience so far, um, why you got involved, et cetera, et cetera. So let's switch back over to you, Yudit, because then, um, we'll go back and forth. So over to you.

(34:55 - 37:34) Judit Jimenez Sainz: That's good. So I applied for this program in 2019, that's since eight years ago, right? And I got selected in 2019. I believe I found out I was pregnant with my first daughter at the same time that I got in the email that I was accepted for Homeward Bound. So that was a big conversation in the family. I decided to take on and then take this program, thinking that I was going to Antarctica in 2020 when my daughter is supposed to be eight, nine months. That didn't happen, as you may know, because of COVID. So I was part of the homeward bound cohort number five. The beauty of being in COVID was that our cohort got really, really close to each other. And we ended up having a virtual program of two years instead of one. So I would say that our cohort was the lucky one. But we didn't get to get to Antarctica. We didn't go to get to Antarctica until 2023. And we recently when? In November of 2023. And as well, the beauty of it was the first time the two voyages were going to Antarctica. So it was H.V. Ushuaia and H.V. Island Sky. So that made the first time in history that 200 women were in Antarctica, 200 female scientists, leaders were in Antarctica. So that was a big historic I'll hit that with it. Experiences, for me, is just the common stories that you hear between women in STEM. It doesn't matter which topic we work on, which country we are, it's common things like what it's been, a woman in science, how we can make the numbers change, how we can bring our ideas forward, just in a certain, very constructive way. And I think it creates a really, really big network worldwide. In other words, the complex, like the big problems that we have now that we may be scared of, like climate crisis or planetary crisis, we get less scared because we feel stronger together. And we want to take those problems forward because we feel capable of doing it and because we haven't been hearing or being in the table before. So those are kind of big ideas and big topics that we were discussing during our virtual training, we were discussing during our time in Antarctica, and we are discussing now moving forward in more collaborative projects.

(37:34 - 38:33) Felicia Jadczak: That's amazing. I just, I love that stat. 200 women leaders and scientists in Antarctica is just mind blowing because first of all, that's a lot of people to begin with. And then a place that, you know, we don't normally get to go to. It makes me think of, and this is, we're all sort of nerd out a little bit, like all those, you know, they're usually male dominated, but like all those, those. where it's like the aliens are invading or like, you know, the earth is burning and then all the countries come together. And usually the U.S. is at the lead of it, but whatever U.S. based movies. And then like, you know, but the idea of this collaboration where it's like, we can't do it alone. We have to collaborate to beat the aliens or whatever. So that's sort of the feel that I get when you are sharing. And when I've heard about this program, I don't know if that's how you all felt, but that I think that just speaks to how amazing it is to be able to connect across these kinds of divider lines that we normally have sort of separating us?

(38:33 - 38:56) Judit Jimenez Sainz: That's how we felt, exactly as you described, that's how we felt. It's something about connecting through science, common problems, and really things that we care about, that is our planet, from different perspective. And that brought us together, and it's a very big kind of glue that keeps us together. So Homeward Bound is doing a really good job there.

(38:56 - 39:02) Rachel Murray: Yep. Beautiful. Tiffany, how did you get involved with Homeward Bound? Funny story.

(39:02 - 42:35) Tiffany Vora: So one of those Mars simulations that I told you about that I did in grad school was actually in the high Canadian Arctic, not too far from the North Pole. So I had already spent six weeks up in an extreme environment. That's a whole other conversation, but you know, life altering thing. And so I wanted to go down south. And you probably can't see behind me, but on my bookshelf, I have a whole shelf just of polar stuff. It's been a life thing for me. But I knew that I didn't want to just go down as a tourist. I wanted to go down with some larger thing in mind. And once I had a child, it became clear that I wasn't going to be moving to Antarctica to live there to do science for a full research season. So it turned out a very good friend of mine who was actually with me in the hospital when my son was born, she ended up working in Antarctica. And back in 2018, she shot me an email. And she's like, hey, you know how you want to go south, but you don't want to just be a tourist? Check this out. And she sent me the link to Homeward Bound. And so I looked at it. I was like, oh, my gosh, leadership training for women in STEM in Antarctica. Perfect. This is exactly for me. And I made the mistake of mentioning it to my boss at the time. And he was like, please, please don't, please don't do this. Like we can't, we can't lose you for four weeks, three weeks, whatever it is, just please don't. And I was like, oh man, like this is exactly why I need to do this kind of thing. But I liked my boss and I liked my team. So I said, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna table this. And then I went to apply in March 2020. And this is why I can remember so clearly, because I was about to go on to a Zoom webinar talking about COVID, and there were 24,000 people in the waiting room to be on this webinar. And I thought to myself, well, I've got all my makeup on, so I might as well shoot my application video for Homeward Bound. So that's why I can remember exactly when I shot my Homeward Bound application video. So my part of the virtual program was 2021. We did it for the full year. And then our cohort was supposed to go to Antarctica in 2021. Didn't happen. 2022 didn't happen. And so 2023 was the magic year for our cohort. And so I was on the other ship. I was on the Island Sky. We had nearly 100 women and non-binary people with STEM backgrounds on the ship. And it was just amazing. And, you know, just to tell you a little story to kind of amplify what Yadit was saying. So one of the things that to me was so remarkable about being on the ship with all these amazing women and non-binary people was it was an environment where I didn't have to hide the fact that I was interested in everything. because nobody was hiding their intelligence or their education or their interest in things. And I remember it took our ship's expedition staff a little while to figure out that they could tell us about literally anything, and they would have 500 questions in the room, and it would be anything. And so our briefings every day went from being 15 minutes here's the penguins you're going to see, be careful getting off the zodiac. So like the chef coming upstairs and saying, you guys, dinner is ready. You have to stop talking about whatever it is you guys are talking about. Women in Antarctica, stamps in Antarctica, mosses in Antarctica, like whatever it is, you guys got to stop because we're all waiting, we all have to eat. And so just this groundswell of just everyone being so interested and engaged all the time, spectacular. What an amazing community.

(42:36 - 43:09) Rachel Murray: Wow, that is such a perfect tie into my next question, which is, you've kind of answered it, so I would love to hear from you too, Udi, about, I mean, this is such a unique experience, as you mentioned, having just women be in this space, women's science, I mean, When else would this happen? And so you've shared a little bit already, Tiffany, about what your experience was, what that was like working with only women and non-binary folks. I was wondering, Udi, if you could share your experience as well and how it might be different.

(43:09 - 45:01) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, so one of the activities that we did, I think that kind of open eyes for many people in the room was trying to look at where we were in terms of diversity in our room. try to talk about an inclusive space, a safe space, how to connect. So we were exploring what that is being empowered and how does it look like, and how for different people, depending who we are or where we were or where we are, it may look different, right? So that activity was very engaging, at the same time daunting at the beginning. So we approach it by, playing like a kid, using kind of a roulette, where we were putting all the colors there. So we worked together as a team, put all the colors and how you locate yourself within that willpower. And I think that was very powerful because it helped us individually to reflect where we are, our past, where we were in our future. At the same time, as understanding everybody in the room, which is really, really hard because it can be a very hard topic to talk about, but it open up the group more, and that help us to connect to a higher level. Again, it's very hard to explain and to crystallize, but you could feel that from the beginning of the session until the end, something has switched. and the dynamic of the group totally change and make the group more dynamic, more engaged and more connected. So that's one example that I really, really, really resonate with kind of that. growth, like you don't know where you are going. You kind of get there and start playing and then suddenly your brain switch.

(45:01 - 46:48) Felicia Jadczak: I love that. Some similar sounds like some similar types of activities and the work that we do. And I agree. I think that there's probably something so powerful about being in such a remote location. Everything is new. As you mentioned, Tiffany, I can imagine. I would probably be right there with you all just saying, I want to learn about everything. Like, what are the screws and bolts that you use to create the thing and the food? So there's so much to learn and take in. And I think that's such an amazing environment that really allows for the switch, as you called it around your brain being out of its norm so that you're open to more, you know, sort of experiences, connections, things like that. And I imagine that the fact that it's primarily women and non-binary folks who, while there's so much diversity that I'm sure was represented, when we talk about the typical, whether it's corporate or higher ed or science or whatever fields, a lot of these fields tend to be more male dominated. So I think that also probably had something to do with how that dynamic changed a little bit. Now, I do want to talk a bit more because obviously one of the important aspects about Homeward Bound is this representation of folks in STEM, women and non-binary folks in STEM. And so it's also about humanity, right? And so going back to what we talked about with just, you know, sort of what's coming up for us and what we can use our technology and our all the research that we're working on as tools. You both clearly care deeply about the future of humanity, so it makes sense that you're part of the project. And I'd love to hear from both of you about how the role of the study of climate change fits in with both of your works, because it's a little bit different, but there's also this thread that goes through it. So maybe we can start with you, Tiffany, and then come back to you, Udi.

(46:49 - 49:02) Tiffany Vora: Sure. I mean, climate touches everything. It touches every part of our lives. It touches our health. It touches our food. It touches our infrastructure. And just this idea that we've had this willful ignorance of this threat for so long is just shocking to me. I honestly, the work that I do with policymakers, with businesses, things like this, I don't know how I can say to them any louder, you aren't doing enough fast enough, and you are kidding yourself about what the future is going to be. One of the things that I learned in Antarctica, which I knew in my brain, but had not yet processed in my heart, I needed to be down there to see it, was one of the polar scientists that I was lucky enough to have on my ship. He's a I'm an oceanographer, polar oceanographer, telling us that even if we went to net zero today, there is already so much climate change locked in that East Antarctica is done. That's it. It doesn't matter if everybody shuts off the switch today. It's over. The question is now, are we going to save West Antarctica, right? And I had not fully internalized the damage that we have set ourselves up for in the coming decades. I think I've been speaking to you as an optimist. I am an optimist. I absolutely believe that we can build a better tomorrow starting today. But I really think that we have severely underestimated the challenge of what's coming at climate. I don't think people really understand how much worse it's going to get before it gets better. I have a 12 year old son. That's the world he's going to be growing up into. And I since we're talking about longevity as well, I'm going to be living in that world for a very long time. And so we have to face the consequences of our decisions and start making different decisions today. And so I joined Homeward Bound to grow my skill set to be able to go around the world and get this messaging out to people. Not just we have to do something, but we can do something and you can do something starting today.

(49:03 - 49:26) Rachel Murray: And I love that. It's such an important message. And it's funny that you say that you happen to mention the optimist, because when you mentioned earlier about, you know, we have so much joy in doing work around space, at my head, I was like, yeah, as opposed to climate change, folks, we're so doom and gloom. So it's, it's beautiful, like, because there's there's that contradiction.

(49:27 - 49:53) Tiffany Vora: I think it's important to experience that doom and gloom. I think we have to let this in. We have to let in what we've done and what we're not doing. But I would rather we didn't stop at doom and gloom. We need to use that as the fuel in our tanks to get us to the next peak. And whether that fuels your anger, whether it fuels your hope, whether it fuels your joy, let it fuel all those things. But don't rest in doom and gloom. Transform that into action.

(49:54 - 49:58) Rachel Murray: Beautifully said. Yudit, what are your thoughts?

(49:58 - 51:46) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yes, to continue a little bit with Tiffany's say about the consequences. I think we're going to see them, but we are already seeing it. And one big question that is happening is human health. I think it's going on a huge incident. I mean, just to touch on cancer. huge incidents of cancer cases, and they're all related to pollution, to climate change, to increasing temperature, and to problems with biodiversity. So that's a reality that, again, many of us, and in particular my lab, is gonna be working on how increasing temperature is affecting proteins that they are taking care of the DNA. So that's happening, that's research that is going, and how we have a ton of diseases, not only as humans, as well as other animals, and how our house is totally filthy. I mean, and if we're just practical, right, we all love living in a beautiful house, right, from the outside to all the inside. We like to open the fridge and see good food and grab an apple and all those good things that make us feel good. We like to walk outside and walk in nature. If we are not careful and we don't start putting solutions, as Tiffany was mentioning, a few of them, we are getting those consequences right away. Water is more contaminated. Air is just all the way to the root with pollution. So again, we are kind of poisoning our own bodies, our own environment. Again, many people may still put that kind of mask in their face, but it's just a mask. It will degrade soon because there's no other reality. The climate is changing, our planet is going down the road. We're not going to pull our pants up and clean it, and clean it really well.

(51:46 - 52:27) Rachel Murray: And the problem is that the people who are getting most acutely impacted are the people with the least amount of power. So that's one of the reasons why they're like, well, it's fine. That's going to happen. And this is where I get my whole Mars thing where I'm like, well, it's fine. We'll just live on Mars. It's like, well, no, right. No, that's not a thing. And that's why we have to take care of it. But it's so hard because the people that we put in place to be in charge of these regulations, they're going away. And because in the US, at least, we're such individualists, we're like, no regulation, we don't need any regulations. Well, great, we're killing ourselves. So great job, team.

(52:27 - 53:17) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, that's what it is. So you know, as you say, many populations have been affected, and it's not the one that is taking the decision in the table. We did see, and I think that was a beauty as well, a homeward bound, how isolated voices, we may make some noise and be here by many people. But as we were adding voices from different perspectives, from the same issue, talking and talking is like a whole amplifier effect. So for me, that was as well kind of a big outline of the ship and the work that we've done together is just hearing from different perspectives what they are seeing. how they are working, how we can do it better. And I think we have to hear and we have to kind of expose that to the public more. That way the conversation is kind of everywhere all the time.

(53:18 - 53:55) Tiffany Vora: One of the big goals of the Homeward Bound program is to help women and binary people with STEM backgrounds have the skills, the confidence, and the network to be in the room where these things happen, whether it's in the boardroom or the governing room or wherever it is, having folks like us in the room where it happens, because so many of us opt out, right? We think, oh, there's somebody smarter, or, oh, I can't leave my kids, or, oh, I don't know anything about that, or I just want to do my research. As long as we think that, everything goes on the way it has been, and we need a change. And so we signed up to be part of that change.

(53:55 - 54:23) Felicia Jadczak: And we are happy. So inspiring. A great point. It's important to add. On that note, I would love to know from the both of you what, if any, advice you have that you would give to other women, girls, folks from underrepresented gender minorities who are looking to break into a STEM career, because I think we need more of you out there. So what advice do you have? Maybe we can start with you, Tiffany, and then come back to you.

(54:24 - 54:57) Tiffany Vora: I think my first piece of advice is to really believe in your heart that there are people like you in the STEM community. Scientists do look like you. Engineers look like you. Doctors look like you. You just got to go out and find us. We're out there. And usually folks like us are so excited to talk to young people who are early in their STEM career. I say no to like a lot of people, but that's so I can save my yeses to the people that I think really matter. And that's folks like that. So believe that there is a place for you and believe there are people like you. You just have to come find us.

(54:57 - 55:39) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, just to add that being a scientist and being a woman is really, really fun. And if you like it, just do it. Just knock my door, knock Tiffany's door, knock any woman in a STEM door that you need. And if you have any dreams, going to Mars with Tiffany or going to Antarctica with it, just follow that. Call anybody that has done it and ask, how have you done it? Can you teach me? Can you help me? Can you either coach me, mentor me? We are here to help because, as well, we are kind of lifted up by others. Again, this is the whole community, and we are happy to provide as many tools as we have to make you shine. So, yeah, just call.

(55:40 - 55:46) Tiffany Vora: And remember, we don't want to be paid back. We want you to pay it forward. That's what we're building here.

(55:46 - 56:06) Rachel Murray: Absolutely beautifully said. Thank you. I think we just have one more quick question. Not just a tiny one. What's your future plans, goals? Yudit, we'll start with you this time. Oh, that's a big question. I don't know. Or Tiffany, whoever wants to go first.

(56:06 - 56:08) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Tiffany, and then I think about it. I don't know.

(56:09 - 58:26) Tiffany Vora: Well, so I guess it depends what timescale we're talking on. So 150 years. Oh, 150 years, girl, I got that. So I mean, look, in the in the short term, there are some some things I'm really keen to accomplish. I'm working on a book, I would really like to finish that. For all you writers out there, you know, like I know that as long as people are talking at you, it's really, really hard to get your writing done. So Carving out opportunities for me to do that. Finding accountability partners who say, Tiffany, where are those pages? You told me they were going to be pages. That's really important to me. So writing and communication is a big part of my craft. So that is something that I want to make sure I'm dedicating time to. There are still places that I want to go and people that I want to talk to. Going to Antarctica definitely shortened my bucket list and I'm very grateful to Homeward Bound. Now the question is, how do I go back? How do I go back in a way that is even more impactful than the first time that I went? I remember when I was down there looking and I just kept thinking, my son needs to see this and he needs to see this as soon as possible because it's going. not so that he can collect that and put it in his pocket as a life experience, but so that that is fuel in his tank to go out and protect this precious planet that we have. So, I mean, honestly, my long scale plan, that's what my plan is. I do everything to try to leave this world better than I found it. And I do that not just for my son, who is the love of my life, but for everybody else out there who who is going to be living into this world that in many ways seems a lot worse. Biodiversity laws, you know, we got my son scuba certified the minute he turned 10 years old because the coral reefs are going, they're going. And it makes me so sad to think that he won't see that. So we were like, get in the water, boy, it's time, like, get your mask on. But we can do more than that. And so when he told me that he wants to be a marine biologist, I thought, oh, please let that be true, because you're the type of person who can help change the world. Come be part of the STEM motion. So that's what it's all about for me, just making the world better, whether it's the next 10 minutes or the next 10 centuries. That's my goal.

(58:26 - 58:27) Felicia Jadczak: UD, over back to you.

(58:28 - 01:00:46) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yes, for me, I want to switch a little bit and rather than talk about goals, we're going to talk about priorities. So future priorities of things I'm working on that may be interesting. So one priority for me as a woman in science is trying to change a little bit those numbers. of women leaders in science that we have. If you depend with surveys you look, they're like 17%, maybe 20 in the best cases. I think we need to change a little bit that to see how that may change a little bit the rest of the things that are happening in our world. So having more women, having more non-binary people in those positions and see how that looks. I'm really curious about change because I like to see differences and I like to kind of explore a different environment. So that's one of my priorities and I'm working that with the homeward bound community and as well. I was a president of a Spanish associations here in US and as well globally. So we are working that from different countries all over the world and from different kind of women and non-binary perspective. So that's one of the priorities. A second priority I would say try to do better research in the lab that will translate into better practices in the clinic to take care of female and to take care of female cancers and extrapolate that to other patients as well that are having similar type of mutation. The third priority is connect all that with a better climate, with a better nature, where we as human beings, or in my case as a human being, I incorporate all that through my daily life. that our routine may change just thinking every second how we can connect to nature and how we can connect to the environment. And that goes back to how I grew up. I grew up in a very small city connected with nature. My grandparents, they have fields. I remember going to pick up grapes, going to pick up olives, going to the garden to grab some tomatoes. I think it's important in every decision that we make daily, we think about how our house will be cleaner and how it will be happier and healthier. And that's as well a kind of a big priority for me that puts together who I am and who I want to be.

(01:00:47 - 01:01:00) Rachel Murray: Beautifully said. Thank you both. We have one like 30 second quick question that we have to ask everyone before you leave, which is what are you currently geeking out about? And it can't be anything that you've already discussed.

(01:01:01 - 01:01:22) Tiffany Vora: I'll give you two. One is scuba diving. So I'm a scuba diver, have been for decades. If you want to get a scuba diver lit up, just say scuba, and they go crazy. And the second thing is I play the guitar. So I play electric guitar. So anything nerdy about live music, playing the guitar, playing the blues, playing rock, that will light me right up.

(01:01:22 - 01:01:31) Rachel Murray: What's your like, what was the last thing you learned to play that you were really excited about? Oh, Stairway to Heaven, baby. Oh my god, amazing. Love it. Yudi, what about you?

(01:01:31 - 01:02:09) Judit Jimenez Sainz: So I would say for me, it's partying and dancing. So being with people is something that I always put time for. I guess it's something that gave me energy. And I'm partying and dancing. I got together with a good Spaniard, right? So I have the stereotype. For me, every day we have a party time at home. So we have Google all over the house and Google will say, OK, it's party time. And it will start playing music. So all the family dance together. Either we are in the top of the house, we will come together and we will dance together. And that's a really, really good thing that yes, bring your joy.

(01:02:09 - 01:02:22) Rachel Murray: I love that. I love that. Well, we're going to put all of the links to where you are in our show notes. But if you want to quickly say where people can find you, where's the best places, that would be fantastic.

(01:02:23 - 01:02:37) Tiffany Vora: So you can come on over to TiffanyVora.com. You can see my writing, my podcast episodes like this one, videos and things like that. And that's an easy way to get in touch with me. I also hang out on LinkedIn. So if you're a LinkedIn person, come follow me.

(01:02:37 - 01:02:54) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Yeah, in my case as well, I have LinkedIn. So Judith Jimenez Sines, you can look me up there. As well, I have Twitter, Instagram, not that much, but you can find me there. And then the website of the lab is JimenezSinesLab.com. And yeah, just follow us.

(01:02:54 - 01:02:58) Felicia Jadczak: Yay! Thank you both so much.

(01:02:58 - 01:03:02) Judit Jimenez Sainz: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. That was a great pleasure, the experience.

(01:03:02 - 01:03:18) Rachel Murray: The pleasure was ours. Thank you so much and hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day. We did it. We hope that you enjoyed listening to this interview as much as we enjoyed having this conversation.

(01:03:18 - 01:04:08) Felicia Jadczak: Thank you so much for listening. And please, before you go, don't forget to rate, share, and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, our work. And you can go ahead and visit us at SheGeeksOut.com, SGOLearning.com, and we're on YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date on all things SGO. Oh, and Hot breaking news off the presses, as it were, before you really, really go, we have a TeePublic store that we just relaunched with some fresh new merch. So you can check that out. There'll be a link on our website. We'll put a link in the show notes, but check out our TeePublic store. You can probably just search for it as well. There's some really cool new designs that I personally would like to get on a t-shirt or a bag or all the things. So check it out and let us know what you think.

(01:04:08 - 01:04:14) Rachel Murray: Yes, agree. Plus one to all of that. Buy things. They're really cool. Thanks, everyone. Bye.