The Power of Holding Space: Reflections on Facilitation and Emotional Labor

Felicia Jadczak:
Hey, Rachel.

Rachel Murray:
Hey, Felicia.

Felicia Jadczak:
How's it going?

Rachel Murray:
You know, it's still going. It's still going, similar to-

Felicia Jadczak:
It's such a loaded question.

Rachel Murray:
I know.

Felicia Jadczak:
How is life in the apocalypse?

Rachel Murray:
It's May, I mean, it's the gentlest apocalypse, they really ease you into it so it's really nice, and it's like-

Felicia Jadczak:
I guess, as long as we don't have zombies, we're still winning.

Rachel Murray:
I know. Well, it's like if you just don't look at the news, if you look out the window ... I think Bill Hicks was a comic from a while ago, and he had this bit where he said, "You know, look at the news it's like war, famine, disease, everything terrible," and then you go open up your window and it's like [inaudible 00:00:49].

Felicia Jadczak:
Birds tripping?

Rachel Murray:
Yeah, exactly. There's such a disconnect for many of us, I think.

Felicia Jadczak:
Yeah, it's interesting times.

Rachel Murray:
It is. It is, but we're in May of 2023.

Felicia Jadczak:
Yup, just like Justin Timberlake tells us and reminds us every year, it's going to be May, and here we are. So we're here, we are recording this in the very beginning of May, and this is going to come out, I think the second week of May, so we are still-

Rachel Murray:
That's correct.

Felicia Jadczak:
A little bit in that time machine, but hopefully nothing wild happens between now and when this drops.

Rachel Murray:
I'm excited for May 4th because, you know, May the fourth be with you is one of my favorite. So I'm going to just put that out there in the world that by the time it's recorded, May the fourth will be the best day.

Felicia Jadczak:
It's a 100% going to be the best day because ... Yeah.

Rachel Murray:
Well, because Carrie Fisher is getting her Hollywood Star, or will have gotten it by the time.

Felicia Jadczak:
Which you told me this, and I honestly was shocked that she didn't already have a Hollywood Star.

Rachel Murray:
I know.

Felicia Jadczak:
I don't understand why this is happening, I do-

Rachel Murray:
I'm glad it's happening,

Felicia Jadczak:
But why?

Rachel Murray:
It's because misogyny is my guess.

Felicia Jadczak:
I mean, sure. Yeah, that's ...

Rachel Murray:
I'm just going to put that out there. All right, for our poor listeners, who probably want to know what is going to be happening today on this lovely podcast episode, which is super special, Felicia, will you tell us all about this episode?

Felicia Jadczak:
Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you who are longtime listeners, which I know all of you are, typically, Rachel and I chat with a really fun guest, maybe sometimes two, but today it's a little bit of a special episode because we are not going to be the ones podcasting aside from this little chit-chat right now, but you're going to be hearing from some team members. So SGO facilitators, Fatima Dainkeh, Rachel Sadler, and Kia Rivera are going to talk about how facilitation seeps into their everyday lives. They're going to chat about the emotional labor that it takes to do this work, both during, before, and after work hours, which it is a lot. They're going to talk about all of that, plus some strategies on how you can turn off facilitator mode. So for anyone who's out there, who's in this kind of role or in a similar job, how you can continue to do this important work without burning out. There's going to be a lot in that conversation. I'm excited about it.

Rachel Sadler:
Welcome everyone to the She Geeks Out podcast. We have a special treat for you because the facilitators have taken over the podcast, and we are really excited to talk to you today about how facilitation kind of seeps into our personal lives. So let's start with introducing ourselves like, "Who are these people talking to us right now?" My name is Rachel Sadler, she, her. I'm one of the DEI facilitators here, and I'm here with two of my favorite people in the whole world, my colleagues, Fatima Dainkeh, and Kia Rivera. I'll let you all introduce yourselves. Go ahead and start, Fatima.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Awesome. I'm excited. Literally, when Rachel said, "We're taking over," I was going to be like, "Woot-woot." You never know when to jump in when the recording on Zoom thing happens, but that's my woot-woot that I was going to say a couple seconds ago. As Rachel said, I'm Fatima, I facilitate here at SGO, and I'm excited to be here today. Kia.

Kia Rivera:
Hi everyone, my name is Kia Rivera. I use she, her pronouns. I am also a DEI facilitator with SGO, and just excited to talk about what it's like to facilitate when you're offline at work, and things of that nature.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah, because it happens naturally, right? We do this work up to eight hours, maybe more, a day, and sometimes it's hard to turn that off, so let's rewind a little bit. What is facilitation in the first place? I think Fatima might be a good person to tell you all what that is.

Fatima Dainkeh:
I was like, "Pick me. Pick me." Okay. So honestly, I wasn't going to put in a shameless plug, but now that I'm about to say what I'm about to say, it kind of is a shameless plug. We have this pretty awesome program called Leading DEI Conversations, and we often define facilitation in the first session because facilitation is a skill. We think of it as a process where we're guiding or directing a group of individuals who are trying to probably work towards a common goal or maybe an objective.
Sometimes it can be difficult when you facilitate because you might have your own personal thoughts, your own personal feels, but oftentimes when we facilitate, especially as DEI facilitators, our goal is to sort of be able to create a space, hold a space, so that multiple people are getting to a certain space, whatever that space is. Whether it's like, "Hey, we want to learn more about bias," our goal is to be in that space, and support their learning, their questions, their knowledge, their uncertainties and whatnot. So that's sort of high level, but I'm curious to know how do you all think about facilitation as facilitators.

Kia Rivera:
I love the idea of it being ... taking people on a learning journey, and just helping them get there. I think a lot of people think of facilitation as teaching, and I don't necessarily agree with that, but I think we're giving them the content, and taking them through that content to hopefully get them to that end goal like you talked about, learning more about bias, learning more about allyship, action-planning. That's sort of how I see it, and that's what I tell clients when we're in a workshop that, "I'm the person speaking, but even though I'm deemed the "expert," I don't feel like an expert, because I'm also learning alongside you." That community learning piece, I think, is really important, but you do need someone to lead you through that, and that's what I see as facilitation.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah, you two summed it up perfectly in just thinking about how, it's not rare, but you're not often interjecting your own thoughts or beliefs, sometimes you might add them in there, but for the most part you are on the outside of the conversation, making sure that we're staying on track, and asking open-ended questions, things of that nature. So unless somebody specifically asks what do you as an individual think, oftentimes we are very focused on the group, and making sure that they are having an opportunity to parse through some of these really difficult topics that we handle in some of our workshops, which leads me to thinking about the emotional capacity of that, because we are facilitating difficult conversations, and we are also impacted by them. All of us here are part of multiple marginalized populations, and so there are things that come up that impact us in various ways. I'm interested in what you all have to think about the emotional component.

Fatima Dainkeh:
I got thoughts and feels. I'm also looking at Kia like, "How many thoughts and feels do you have?"

Kia Rivera:
I have a lot. I think as we do this work, and as the world around us, one feels on fire, and the political landscape is evolving in a way that is attacking our work, it becomes even more emotional labor. When folks feel as though they need to share every thought that's going into their brains during a facilitation, it can be really weighing on those identities that Rachel was talking about. I think about how I show up in a space as a queer, Latinx person, and that is hard some days when we're talking about racism, or we're talking about unconscious bias, and I hear something that targets my identities, and I'm like, "Ooh, how am I being perceived in this room?"
Then there's also the being palatable for folks too like, "What part of me is it having people put their guard up too?" So how am I both taking care of myself, and I know Fatima will go into embodiment and more, but what am I feeling in my core? Am I getting angry? Am I getting nervous? Am I nervous because I'm not being perceived in the ways that I think I should be perceived? Or am I also, knowing as a facilitator you have to hold space for everyone, and be that sort of protector of the space, what does that look like when you're the one being harmed too? So how do you set your feelings aside, say the things you need to, to come back to those community agreements, or put the participation back on the right path after they swayed off a little bit to be like, "Hey, nope, we're actually talking about this topic," or, "I hear you and I see you, and yet we have to get back." Like the yes, and sort of moments, but you also feel that harm, and that shame that comes with it too.

Fatima Dainkeh:
So real. Also, I was wondering which one of us were going to say both and first, and Kia did. Those of us who facilitate know. Here's a Twitter page called, I don't think I can say the word, but it's S-H-I-T.

Rachel Sadler:
Ish.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Ish, right, ish. Oh, that's the ... Yes, yes, ish, that facilitator say. I think that's the handle, right?

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah.

Fatima Dainkeh:
It's so good. Hilarious. Check it out if you haven't, but I wanted to add onto what Kia said, because being a facilitator requires you to be able to be aware of yourself first. It's actually harder to facilitate a group in a process on a certain space if you're not self-aware around what are the things that trigger you or don't trigger you. Sometimes you think you know, and then somebody says something and he like, "Ooh, I thought I took care of that already five years ago in therapy." Here it goes, [inaudible 00:10:35].

Rachel Sadler:
Now it's time for everyone to go in a breakout room. That's real.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Because I got to catch my breath, and so that emotional labor is real, just because you have the skills, just because you've been doing the work for years, just because you've probably done your own healing, and all those things, doesn't mean that you're not going to come back to a space where it can be hard for you to talk about a certain topic. Because the truth is, when you're facilitating, you don't always know who's in the room, whether that's in person or virtually. Sometimes some of our workshops might go pretty smooth, everyone's in the same agreement or on the same page, and more of your facilitation is around just guiding the curiosities, but other times you might get resistance, you might get some challenges, and if you don't have it often when it does happen, you're like, "Oh, let me pull out these other skills." The emotional labor also lies within how we feel within our bodies based off of whatever it is that's happening in the room, and then in addition, how do we come off of that.
A lot of times we talk about how we feel after a workshop or after a training, and in the moment the adrenaline might be pumping, and it's like, "Okay, I know I'm here to do this job," but then because you have to hold that space, you're not always going to be able to support yourself, because you're trying to help clients or employees have a conversation, what folks are paying you for. Sometimes I find myself spending anywhere, minimum from 30 minutes to an hour, to two hours, or like, "Hey, I'm taking the rest of the day off," depending on what's showing up. So that emotional labor requires me to also be very aware of what are the things that I need before, during, and after, so that I'm able to hold the space, but I'm also able to hold space for myself during those moments as well.

Rachel Sadler:
I want Kia to talk about the, she came with this term called potato after the facilitation. Please tell the people about that real quick.

Kia Rivera:
Yeah, potato-ing. I was just thinking about me and my therapist talk about that a lot, that is a form of self-care I've put in, first, specifically after facilitations. It's that sort of 30 minutes, to maybe two hours, to maybe a full day after a facilitation, where I potato on the couch. I just sit on the couch, maybe it's mindlessly scrolling on TikTok for some serotonin, maybe it's doing content work behind the scenes, focus work if things need to get done, but it is a way for me to ground myself back in those emotions. Maybe journal about the things that I was like, "Oh, I thought I worked through that thing five years ago in therapy," that I now have to bring up with my therapist or, "What are some of the ways I could have reacted to that statement better?"
Over the past few months, one workshop in particular, I feel like I've been trying to do that with of like someone says something, "How can I react better next time?" Or, "How can I present this better, and facilitate this better to the group so people don't get resistant or have that defensive up?" Because I see myself even being like, "Oop, this isn't going to land the way I want to, but I need to get through the content. How am I getting through the content?" So that's basically what potato-ing is for me, is being on the couch. I almost said being in the ground like an actual potato, but no, being on the couch. One, grounding myself, and then two, really thinking back to the work of what can I do better for my participants, but also recognizing that emotional labor that we are all experiencing, that it is very tiring, especially after an in-person workshop.
I had forgotten that, and then going back into in-person stuff, my whole day is sort of like ... I'm a zombie, I'm like, "Oop, I talked to a lot more people than I'm used to in my daily life, and here I am, I'm on, I'm walking around a room, talking," feeling very different feelings than you do on Zoom, so potato-ing happens very hard on those things.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah, I can definitely identify with that. I was a teacher for 12 years, and so you have back to back classes, and when you're in front of tiny humans, you never know what they're bringing. Everybody brings a lot with them, and so at the end of a day I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to have pizza and wine, and watch the most mindless things," because so much of your attention, your emotional expenditure, intellectual, you've given that up during the day. Then when we're going into the virtual spaces, that still exists, and if something is potentially triggering for you, if there are things that come up and how again, you are taking care of yourself in the moment, but also other folks in the room. If there are people that are saying something that maybe doesn't come off right, and then the other people that may have reactions to that, in addition to your own, and then being able to notice and name that, and if we need to take a collective break, that's fine, step away.
In particular, recently, I was in a workshop and the topic came up about Ralph Yarl, and how ... When you talk about children and babies, I get very passionate about that because I've worked with them for so long. Sometimes I can get on a bit of a soapbox because we are talking about these oppressive systems, and look at the real life impacts of that, and the people in our communities that look like that, our family members, our friends, our colleagues. I think it's important to name things, and make it real for people, but also understanding that maybe it took five minutes, maybe get some water, let's stretch, I need to move a little bit. I can feel it, like my face gets really hot, and my chest gets a little itchy, so I have to stand up and get that out before we start again. As a facilitator, knowing how to do that, when to do that, and all of the management that that takes can be a lot.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Yeah. When you were talking about teaching and facilitation, and I know earlier Kia was like, "There's a difference," I'm curious, Rachel, I remember being in school, and I remember ... I don't remember my teachers taking a break, especially elementary and middle school, they just had classes back to back. I think about where we work, sometimes there's an opportunity to take a break, and I'm curious, was it even normalized in the teaching space to be like, "Oh, if something is too much, take a break," or whatever the case may be?

Rachel Sadler:
No, usually you have ... Teachers have classes back to back, and students even, because you're having to get through so much content and curriculum for state mandates, breaks aren't often encouraged depending on the length of the class. Most classes are either 50 minutes to 90. I don't always follow rules so even if it's a 50-minute class, if we're having hefty conversations, if something has been triggering to a student, it's just a lot of content, let's take a brain break. Let's chill out. Let's move. Let's listen to some music. Let's have a snack, because we're humans and you need ... there's all these physiological and psychological needs that have to be met. If you overload people, no matter what age, with too much too soon, and do not allow for that processing, whether you're teaching somebody or facilitating conversations, there has to be a place where the body can rest for a moment, because otherwise cognitive dizziness comes in, resistance comes in, and people can shut down, and that's the opposite of I think what we want.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Thanks for sharing that. I know your little ones probably miss you, but it's also ... it's such a powerful way to think about, even when I've seen you in action or a lot of the engagement work that you're doing at SGO to support adults as well, sit in front of the screen or however they're witnessing the workshop, and be like, "Okay, let's take a break." I feel like some of what you shared, that you've been using in the classroom, I often see it as well in your practice, and some of the work that you're doing in the facilitation space, so that's kind of cool.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah. What works for people, works for people, no matter what age. I think all of our collective attention spans have suffered significantly over the years, so as a whole, no matter what age you are, I feel like all of us have very short attention spans. So that, and we all just need to prioritize and normalize human experiences, and breaks, and allowing people to be human in all spaces, and honoring that. If that means that we have to readjust, okay, that's part of the facilitation game, I guess, is being able to adjust on the fly, and not get stressed out by that.

Kia Rivera:
Yes, and.

Fatima Dainkeh:
So beyond both, and we have yes, and.

Rachel Sadler:
I had to use that statement. Again, so how does this bleed over to our personal lives? So I'm at the gym, lifting things up, putting things down, and I have a little gym crush, so we try to find ways to interact. It's usually because we can't do this in normal ways, finding something to argue about, so this individual wanted to argue with me or have a discussion about whether or not anger is a negative emotion. My thought was, "Well, yes, because your body responds negatively to the emotion of anger." and his argument was, "Well, it can be processed positively." Yes, and. Yes, you can have a negative emotion that can be processed into something positive if you are taught to do that, and so I found myself saying that a lot, or two opposing things can be true at the same time.
As we're having this discussion, of course more people are coming in because we have a very small gym, and it's not a lot of space, and we're talking loudly. So people are coming in, and I'm noticing people want to participate, and so now I am facilitating a conversation, "Hey, such and such look like she wants to say something. What is it that you have to say?" "Oh, well, sir, can you repeat that? Tell me more about that." So now I'm not even conversing anymore, I am facilitating folk in the gym, who really should be doing these bicep curls, but now we're going to have a philosophical argument about whether or not anger is a negative emotion.

Fatima Dainkeh:
When you got into the moment of, "I noticed other people," I was like, "Here comes the facilitator hat." It just switched gears from, "Here I am having a conversation, and then somebody," now you're like, "This person hasn't said much yet. Carl, was there anything else you wanted to add to what was just said?" That's so real. I have some thoughts around anger, but in true facilitation mode, Kia, do you have anything else to add? What are your immediate reactions to Rachel's story?

Kia Rivera:
I'm just like, "Oh, I have been there before too." In friend conversations, if we're on a heated topic, my friends and I like to play this game called Hot Topics, what's your hot take on something, and it could be anything. Sometimes it is philosophical conversations like is anger a negative emotion, and I feel myself being like, "Oh, no, so-and-so you're talking over this person. Let them have their moment," or, "We haven't heard from this person in a moment." It doesn't bother me all the time, but I think when we talk back to that piece of embodiment, and triggers, and activators, when it's about something that's really rooted in our work, that's when I can feel myself getting really anxious, or tired, or angry even, like, "Why am I continuing to have to do this?" And I'm not getting paid, so what does that also look like, and why isn't anyone else in my immediate friend group or family group taking on this role?
What does that look like in practice too? Is it office housework where we're like, "All right, Rachel, and Fatima, we're rotating who's taking notes. Is it we rotate who facilitates the hot topics, hot takes conversation? I don't know, it's really hard. Or when something big happens in the news, and I have to talk to friends who don't have similar identities to me about things, I'm the one who's navigating, and facilitating those conversations, which is a whole other topic for a different day, but it is also really difficult to do when you're like, "I do this for a very similar audience, 9 to 5, now why am I being asked to do this 7 to 10?"

Rachel Sadler:
That's real.

Kia Rivera:
Yeah.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Everything in me is excited, and I don't mean that in happiness way, just there's so many thoughts that are running through me because when I think about what you just said, Kia, it really just makes me think about how often I've held space, and it connects to anger too, or the lack of expressing anger. Because there's something, for me, that I've noticed where I'm like this idea of being a bigger person, I picked it up as a child. I was like, "No one else is doing it, so I have to do it, and I have to hold the space," and it turned into low-key, maybe even mid-high key perfectionism. Over time it's adaptive, because I've learned, as a child I learned how to navigate my personal and familial interactions, but then you get into the world, and it's not sustainable because there are a lot of things that I've be wanting to say, and do, and I'm like, "Wow, I'm suppressing so much," but this feeling of suppression feels very familiar. It feels very familiar from childhood, and a lot of it is suppressing anger.
So what you said earlier, Rachel, made me think of some of the somatics work that I've gotten into around like, "Okay, I know there's something there, but I don't know what it is." The beauty of having someone else facilitate my stuff for me is great, because I can just freely say and question, and be all of who I am, without necessarily being judged or being asked to stop. I know that's why people love facilitators, that's why people want us to facilitate our family meetings, or our friend conversations, because in many ways we're allowing people to be seen or feel valued, and it's a beautiful thing. But if it doesn't feel reciprocal in relationships, it can be hard because even though you're a facilitator, you're also a human, so you too want to be seen and heard.
So the piece around anger that you mentioned is interesting because I think when I grew up, especially growing up in my particular home, because not all West Africans and Muslims be suppressing anger, let me just be clear, however or and, and and, there we go, some facilitation words, I've noticed we've used our culture and religion as a way to sort of control these emotions that are very normal and primal, in terms of how do you react if something doesn't feel good to you. The way we might define anger in my community, when I respond in that way in the US, or in Western context, it's not a big deal. People are like, "No, yeah, it's valid. You're supposed to feel this way."
If and when I respond, or do the same thing within my house, or within my family environment, people get a little flustered, they're like, "Fatima, calm down. Everything is in God's hands." There's this very quick reaction to stop the anger because people do think that anger is always conflict-ridden or destructive, but I've learned over the past year and a half is like, "How do I hold space for this anger and let it rise, but then use it as a powerful force for change, versus letting it sit in as well?" Then having someone facilitate that for me because I don't want to be my own facilitator.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah. That was my follow-up question going to be is, Fatima, how do you do that if you are in the facilitator role though?

Fatima Dainkeh:
How do I do what? How do I help people process their anger?

Rachel Sadler:
Or process your own anger?

Fatima Dainkeh:
Oh, if I'm angry-

Rachel Sadler:
In the moment, if you are facilitating a family, even in workshops, how do you wrestle with that? Or is it something you're like, "Okay, I feel it, now I'm going to potato or talk to my therapist about it next week?"

Fatima Dainkeh:
Yes. So workshops, it's very rarely now that I get angry. When I first started facilitating, I entered facilitation with a very deep passion, because I entered facilitation through a racial justice lens, I was like, "Oh, heck no, I'm going in this space. We're going in." But I also think because of my cultural indoctrination, I've never fully, fully ... Most people haven't seen me angry. Also, being a black woman, and a darker-skinned woman, I'm very expressive, if folks can see me right now, I'm moving my hands as if I'm throwing things around, but I think my anger, I've learned how to channel it in workshops for very passionate conversations. If I feel a rumbling inside of me, then taking a moment to pause and saying it, and being like, "This is a hard conversation," and it's even hard for me, and so maybe that might be like, "Let's take a break," or if there's someone who said something, my brain automatically goes to like, "This isn't personal."
I think that's why I can have conversations about isms because, "You don't know me, I don't know you. You'll be saying whatever you want to say, it's not going to impact me." Now it's more challenging though, if I'm having a conversation with family or friends because it feels more personal, because I know these people like, "You've seen me in my diapers all the way up to as an adult, or you've known me for 10 years," and it's because of that connection and timeline, those triggers are very much hard. So what I've noticed is if I'm in the house and I'm having a conversation with my mom, and at this point I feel like everyone knows about my mom, because if I'm doing anything I mention her, but that relationship has been a very deep relationship for healing for myself, and with her, I share with her, I'm like, "Hey, this is really frustrating right now. I'm going to step away and we can talk about it later."
There are other times where I just literally take note of my breath, and allow that to be my focus, if I feel like I'm about to rage off on her, recognizing that it's not going to be beneficial for both of us. Then there are other times where I got to get a little bit stern depending on the conversation, where I'm like, "This isn't okay," give my feedback or whatever the case may be. So, playing with all of those, it really depends on the specific situation, but now I'm curious, what do you all do? How do you all ... What does it look like for you to be in a position where it's very hard, and you want to facilitate, but it feels so personal? What are the things that you all do when it's in a personal space outside of work?

Rachel Sadler:
For me, for family, there's this word that I love called boundaries, that I have had to establish, and sometimes those boundaries are, "These are not conversations that I will engage in because I end up doing all of the work." I end up being the one that's suppressing feelings, and redirecting all these things, and I don't participate in the conversation meaningfully, and I end up leaving with all of this unsaid stuff, and emotions in my belly. It alters the way I view that relationship, and so ... because these are people that are really close to me, it's tricky, because you want to have tough conversations with folks that you care about, but also, I recognize myself going back into a facilitation mode, maybe as a defense mechanism.
I should parse that out with my therapist, but maybe it's avoidance, I don't know, but it gets very ... when we're talking about people that are closer to me, if it's just friends and acquaintances, then I'm sometimes able to push past that a little bit and say, "This is how I feel about it," and so forth. But for me in particular, it's very tricky when we're talking about family, and people that are that close to me, I have to be like, "This is a firm boundary. We cannot have this discussion, or if we do, these are the parameters under which I'm willing to have it with you."

Kia Rivera:
Yeah. I do very similarly as Rachel, of a boundary, or I'm able to name my feelings depending on who it's with of like, "This is what's coming up for me, do we want to talk through it? Do we want me to just name it, and it's in the air, and we can continue the dialogue the way that we have been?" But I also find myself having a harder ... It's interesting to see yourself as a facilitator in a workshop, where I feel like people don't really argue, whereas in private life, I feel like everyone would just be wilding out, and wanting to argue. So that's the part I haven't really worked well with, because I think my brain keeps going like, "Oh, this is a workshop, they'll stop at some point," but I'm like, "They're not in their workplace. They're hanging out with their family. You're their friend. They're just going to keep going and going, and going and going." So if that's the case, I try to disengage, and I'm like, "I'm good," but it's definitely hard.
I think it's also hard ... We talked about this before we started recording this podcast, around we have the language and the tools for these things, and there are people in my life who don't. I'm not saying I'm better than them by any means, but I can lean on those tools, and those skills, and those words, and they can't. I think that that's what sometimes I rub up against of like I know how to name feelings in a way that supports myself and the person I'm talking to, and in a way that isn't putting down on the other person, and yet the person I'm talking to doesn't have that. So then it's like a blame game, or it becomes something that it wasn't before, and that is what I'm finding difficulty in right now.
When it comes to family, when it comes to friends, I want to be able to express emotions about a thing that's happening in our dynamics, but I know I'm the one who's going to have to facilitate them, and I have these tips and tricks, and tools on how to do that, and yet I'm going to also have to hold this other person because they're not going to be able to hold me, so what do I do then is sort of my question to us and myself.

Rachel Sadler:
You just named a lot of work that the people in your orbit are getting for the low price of free.99. That is a lot of education, training that you've had, and then working in that moment, whereas folks usually can just have a disagreement or an argument, and it is what it is, but now you are working to manage this conversation, this person, whatever have you, and it's like, "Do we ever get to turn that off?" I'm sure there's plenty of folks who teach, facilitate, coach, that know how to turn that off very easily. I am not one of those people, so I'm working on, "All right, what capacity am I showing up in? Is this serving ... I know I'm serving this person, am I serving myself?" If not, giving myself permission to disengage if that's the case, or perhaps we need to involve a third party, like a therapist, and use your co-pay, if that's something that you can do.
Or maybe even, it might be wild to say, if you have another friend that's skilled, "Can we all have this conversation together so that I can say what I need to say, and somebody else can hold the space?" Because I'd be tired for real just trying to have regular conversations with the folks in my life.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Oh, man, this is such a great conversation because it's making me think, like when you said, just now, Kia, when you said you have to make the decision about if the conversation is going to happen, because you yourself, you have the tools and the strategies, and you have had enough conversations with that person, or a group of people in your personal life, where you could probably guess how it's going to go until you have to decide, because the question becomes, "Who's going to hold me? And do I have the capacity to do so?" I appreciate what you said, Rachel, around getting a third party, or somebody else that could be a bit neutral because sometimes that does help, and it allows you to just be you, and the other person to be you.
Then I started thinking about some of my family interactions I've had, and we have family meetings, there's pros and cons to the collectivist culture, okay? So yes. Yay, I'm so grateful we have family meetings, but the way the family meetings are run is we go in this order of we open it up with a prayer, that's cool with me, but we go on the order of usually oldest to youngest/men first, women last. I'm usually the last person to speak, which I'm like, first of all, everybody that just says something I don't agree with, or I might sometimes agree with, but I'm also ... I feel like my mom has a lot of wisdom, but because of how the culture, or the way they've interpreted the culture and religion, because I've seen other people within our same culture and religion that don't do the same things, but the way they've interpreted it, my mom will have a lot of wisdom about something, but she will defer to the elder men in my family, because she thinks that's how it should be done.
There was a time where I was like, "Okay, this is interesting. I feel like we should try out something different." It only happened once. It didn't happen again, but I'm just saying like, "Okay, let me use my tools and strategies, maybe it'll work," and I was like, "Hey, before the meeting, can we have an agenda? First of all-

Rachel Sadler:
Not an agenda for the family meeting, Fatima.

Fatima Dainkeh:
You all, the family meetings will be three hours, there's no ... we're going from left to right, up and down, and then there's no plan. It's very stressful because after the meeting, everybody goes on WhatsApp, and if you are an immigrant, or a child of immigrant, you all know that's where we collaborate. It's like everybody goes on WhatsApp, it's like, "What are we supposed to do again?" It's like, "Okay, so how do I hold space for the way we move as a culture, and also try to put some tools in place so that we're not tired, or we're not spending a whole day processing things that would be easier?" But I try to do it in a way where I was like, "Just put it in WhatsApp, and I'll put something together." Then it was like, "And I would love for us, before we start the meeting and jump into business, I want to know how you all feeling, how you all doing, I'm doing this embodiment stuff."

Kia Rivera:
Not an icebreaker.

Fatima Dainkeh:
I know. I did. I tried it. I know, right? You all, I remember my family was answering, but I was like, "What kind of answers are these?" My brother was like, "Oh, I thank God for everything, things are okay," or my other brother was like, "I'm just glad we're having the meeting." Then somebody else said, "Okay, let's start the meeting." Different ways of operating, but what it made me realize is one of the things that Rachel has done, or one of the programs you've worked on with Breaking Barriers has been great, the word boundaries, everyone is saying it, they're putting it out there. I've learned that that word does just not translate over to immigrant folks, they don't get it, unless if they probably were, they've traveled and they've gone to different places. But the word boundaries sounds like a wall to a lot of immigrant folks, because they feel like there's a disconnect happening when you say, "Hey, I need my time and space." It's like, "Your time? It's our time." You know what I mean?
So a lot of my work these past couple of years has been giving people the language they need to love on me, and to hold space for me, and I haven't done a lot of that. So there's my work, because I'm like, "I have all the tools and strategies," I'm like, "but girl, put all that to the side. How do you want to be heard and loved?" That has made a change in terms of how my folks communicate with me. Then also, giving language to my family, being like, "Oh, mom, remember when your dad was like marry my father and you didn't want to? And remember how you felt? So yeah, me trying to move out," you know what I mean? I'm making that connection for her, because I do care about our relationship, and if I say, "I don't want to have this conversation with you," the relationship begins to change.
I do have a craving of understanding, I recognize that about myself. Now, if I've tried my best and I've exhausted all of my means, then I'm like, "Okay, I'm done," but I will find the things, and that has been a bit helpful, but acceptance is the biggest piece, just accepting that some folks ain't going to change, and I don't got to facilitate everything.

Kia Rivera:
I hate to break it to you, friend, but the humanizing that you were doing with your mom as a facilitation strategy, you see how it just comes in there like, "See how you did this? Now, put yourself in somebody else's shoes." It's also a facil ... I mean, it's awkward.

Fatima Dainkeh:
That's true.

Kia Rivera:
It's real.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Yeah.

Kia Rivera:
It's a real thing though, where you're having people see or feel their feelings, and then, "See, you can understand then how somebody else might feel that way." I wish we did that a little bit more often though. I think a lot of times we get caught up in our own individualistic thought patterns, feelings, whatever have you, and maybe don't consider other people, and I think that could be very problematic. The example, I think, that facilitators set, and hopefully that people take away from the workshops, or the gym conversations, or the family meetings is like, "How am I naming what I need? But also how am I able to see the humanity in other people, and honor that as well, and make space for that?" I don't be wanting to do that either. I really want to cuss people out and just react. You want to just have a reaction, but we're so trained not to that I find it very difficult to react in certain ways.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Hard.

Rachel Sadler:
I think, ultimately, the conclusion that we have come to, not necessarily a hard conclusion, but word of the day, boundaries, right? So naming what it is that you need, and being able to say that to folks, in particular those that are close to you, is one way that if you are in the facilitator capacity, teacher capacity, coach capacity, being able to name what you need, and say that, and having those conversations with folks maybe ahead of time. So maybe before the family meeting, or before you have some wild conversation saying, "Hey, I need to be seen this way," or, "I need to have this conversation in a loving manner," or whatever it is, so that way the person understands what they're coming into it with. Anything that I missed for how we can shut off facilitator mode, and just be people?

Fatima Dainkeh:
I feel like the boundaries piece, and this is something that is, it's going to be a consistent thing for me, because I think that in addition to boundaries, I don't think I was ready for the layer of grief that comes along with setting boundaries. I think that I've had to just allow myself to feel my feels, and not feel like I need to facilitate or be like, "Oh, this person didn't mean that because they don't have the tools and language." Because I can automatically go there like, "Oh, my mom doesn't mean ... she's not meaning any harm," or this person, and it's like I can set those boundaries, but when I do that, there is a feeling for me, not even thinking about the other person of that connection feeling different, not having the same connection that I had before, or feeling really sad about the fact that our relationship isn't as deep as it could be, and so that's been challenging.
I think one of the things I've been trying to practice is just sitting with the fact that boundaries isn't meant to be a easy thing, but also feeling okay about me being frustrated, which also means that I have to accept the frustration that comes on the other side of folks that I'm setting boundaries for. Because they don't know that, they're like, "What is happening?" You know what I mean? It's hard for them, and it's like nothing I can say or do will make someone understand, so how do I make peace with not being understood? That sometimes is challenging for me.

Kia Rivera:
Yeah. When you were saying that, I was thinking about that when it comes to naming things, because when you put yourself out there, and you put your feelings out there, and your needs out there, and people can't meet them, you have to grieve the air being suck out of that room. You have to grieve that you are now looking at that person in a different way, but also, what does it look like to hold grace? Fatima is one of my favorite people to talk to about this, because I think she does this very well in a lot of ways, and I know it's something she still even struggles with, not to air all your things out, but-

Fatima Dainkeh:
Hey, Kia, tell the people. Give them my social security number. No, I'm kidding I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Kia Rivera:
I hope that was okay. I should have asked you.

Fatima Dainkeh:
No, no, it's totally fine. It's fine.

Kia Rivera:
But it's something I want to be better about myself because I think that's where my fear comes from, is setting boundaries, like you said, Fatima, and when you name things, and your needs aren't being met by the people you hope and care, and love for, and want them to be able to meet your needs, and they can't do that, so what now? What do we do now? Then with that, a thing that came up for me a lot when we were first talking about this conversation was we're using words like naming and boundaries, and I am on TikTok, I'm a TikTok girl, and I've been seeing on TikTok a lot around how people are using these words, and frameworks, and concepts to actually cause harm to people. So how are we also being mindful when we're doing these things around the impact of using them in a negative way, in a way that doesn't create space for dialogue if we're just shutting people down in the sake of just shutting people down?
So how are we opening that dialogue after we set that boundary with our family, our loved ones? What are we doing when we're naming something, and someone isn't meeting that need? How are we continuing that conversation going if we have it in us, but also respecting ourselves enough to know when enough is enough? That's kind of like where I see the next stage of this conversation going, maybe in a few months or a year from now for all of us.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah. We can't have nothing nice, we find something to use, and somebody always ruins it. It's like, "Why can't we just have nice things?" To go back to what you were talking about, Fatima, we talked about that in Breaking Barriers like, "Can you take boundaries too far?" Yes, you can. Anything, I would argue, can be taken too far. We see people do it all the time, and so constantly being in an evaluative state, I think. I think that's being alive anyway, but just re-evaluating like, "Am I really doing too much right now?" Or, "No, I'm actually doing enough and other people are not able to receive that, or they don't have the capacity, or they don't have the skillset or whatever that is," and how are you working through that dynamic?
I am not a fan of just canceling people. We're people at the end of the day, and I really want us to humanize each other because ultimately we're all we got, and if we just keep cutting folk off, then that's a very isolating place to be. There are circumstances where people do need to be cut off, but not everybody because they don't agree with you, that is a very problematic way to, I think, be in the world.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Capacity just probably needs to be the word of the century, because what you said right there is folks don't always have the capacity, and so what Rachel said, and then Kia said, then what next? And what do you do with that? That's the continuous work of relationships, that there's always going to be a question mark, a tension somewhere somehow, whether it's in your body or in between, or between you and the other person. But the thing that you mentioned on TikTok, I still haven't gotten on TikTok, I'd be trying to get on TikTok, but then I just be like, "This is kind of like Instagram." I hope nobody from TikTok or Instagram listens to this because-

Rachel Sadler:
I am an elder millennial, and so I don't know.

Kia Rivera:
You don't know.

Fatima Dainkeh:
But there's so many great things on Tik ... when I get on there, I'm like, "Wow, this restaurant, I want to go there," but I kind of need somebody to send those things to me versus me looking at them. Okay, I'm getting sidetracked. Come on, facilitators, put me back on track. I was going to say what you said with the TikTok stuff. I was saying this the other day on my Instagram post about the pendulum, and how when you're in your healing journey in whatever it is that you're healing from, or with, or whatever, however you want to term it, is when there's a piece of you that realizes everything. It's like, "Oh, my gosh, I've been doing all these things for people," or, "I haven't been heard," or, "This wasn't a healthy relationship."
If you feel like, "Oh, I've been too nice," for example, sometimes you want the pendulum to be somewhere in the middle, but what ends up happening is you swing it all the way to the other end, and then you're like, "Nope, because I've been nice, and now I'm at the be up in everybody's face." I do think sometimes people need to go there sometimes in their healing journey, to then come somewhere that feels good to them. I have seen people use therapy language, that the therapist is telling you to be like, "Hey, this is not healthy. You need to set boundaries. This is a toxic relationship." But the therapist never says, and don't go tell the other people that, this is for your work, but I think people take that and like, "Yeah, exactly." Then they go to the person and be like, "Yeah, because you're toxic, and you're dusty, and you're raggedy." All right, maybe I don't go there.

Rachel Sadler:
Not a good idea. Yeah, the ad libs, those are Fatima-specific, folks.

Fatima Dainkeh:
But it makes sense because you maybe never felt like you had a voice, or you were second guessing yourself, and you finally have someone validating you, and in a way, it feels like a relief, but that other person probably is not seeing it coming from anywhere because your relationship never existed in that way. But sometimes you can use ... you won't even say raggedy or these other words, you might just say, "Hey, this is an unhealthy relationship," and that still is enough to trigger somebody else to be like, "Unhealthy? Are you calling me unhealthy?" So it's hard, I think therapists, maybe could start giving people talking points.

Rachel Sadler:
You mean like a cheat sheet?

Fatima Dainkeh:
Yes.

Kia Rivera:
The advice on TikTok too, you shouldn't go around ... If I asked Fatima to do something for me in a work capacity and she tells me, "I don't have the capacity for it," I can't then go back and say, "Fatima's toxic." There's also that piece to it too, of maybe you're getting a conversation in therapy about someone that is valid in your truth, and there are also aspects to the world that Fatima has boundaries of her own, and I can't call her toxic for setting her own boundaries. So what is that? That's a whole other topic for another podcast of what does that look like in practice, but yeah.

Rachel Sadler:
Yeah, that's some deflecting and projection, and all kinds of stuff that we don't have time for today.

Fatima Dainkeh:
The facilitation voice.

Rachel Sadler:
And here we are. So I would like to thank both Fatima, and Kia for taking over the podcast with me, and talking about what it means to be a facilitator on and off the clock. As you have heard, we are all still kind of struggling with the same things that most people are because, first and foremost, we're human beings, but we are in the work, and we're committed to it. If you have any tips, tricks, or otherwise, you can slide into my DMs or my inbox and let me know, and I will be happy to attempt to put them into practice.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Thanks, Rachel, for inviting us to hang with you.

Kia Rivera:
Yeah, thank you so much, Rachel. Thank you, Fatima for sharing as well.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Thanks, Kia, for putting my business out in these streets. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I kid, no, it was great. It was a great conversation.

Rachel Sadler:
Thanks so much. Bye, friends.

Fatima Dainkeh:
Bye.

Felicia Jadczak:
All right. So hopefully you learned a lot from that, and took away some tips, and some thoughts on how to handle facilitation, and what that's all about. Thank you so much for listening, and we have a couple things we want to plug before you wrap up with our podcast today. So Rachel, do you want to kick us off?

Rachel Murray:
Sure.

Felicia Jadczak:
Actually no, I'm going to kick us off.

Rachel Murray:
Okay. Great.

Felicia Jadczak:
Then I'm going to switch it over to you. Just keeping us on our toes, you know, [inaudible 00:51:35].

Rachel Murray:
Love that for us.

Felicia Jadczak:
Love it for us. So, first of all, we have a ton of webinars coming up, and so if you're interested in the DEI work that our team does, and those lovely folks who you just spent a little bit of time listening to, and hearing more from them, please check out our website. We have webinars every month. They are free. They are an hour long, very little commitment, but you're going to learn a lot, I guarantee that. So check that out. The next webinar that is coming up in June, actually, sorry, we do have a May webinar that is on pronoun, so check that out. Then in June, I'm actually going to be delivering the webinar, which is all around anti-Asian sentiment and how to combat it, so check that out if you want to learn and hear more from me.

Rachel Murray:
Yay. Then the news that we've been sort of teasing over the past few months, is that it is our 10th anniversary of our very first event. Back in June, 2013, we held our very first [inaudible 00:52:29] 10 years, 10 years later, so we're having a big old anniversary party in Boston. So if you are in the Boston area, we encourage you to sign up, grab a spot. There are not a million spots, so definitely get your ticket when you can. It'll be held at Yvonne's in Boston, downtown Boston, and we are very excited because it's going to be in Felicia's special favorite area, the Secret Room in Yvonne's.

Felicia Jadczak:
I mean, it is going to be the Secret Room, so highly recommend that you sign up because spots are limited, and you won't want to miss it.

Rachel Murray:
The food and drinks, and company are all wonderful. Then finally, we are going to be having another round of leading DEI Conversations, which is a public program that'll be happening this summer, registration will open ... applications will open at the end of this month, so just stay tuned for that. Definitely sign up for our newsletter, if you're not already on there.

Felicia Jadczak:
Yeah. So thank you all so much for listening, and please don't forget to rate, share, and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast, and by extension to work. Make sure to tune in for our next episode in two weeks.

Rachel Murray:
If you're looking to further your own education, and gain support alongside other incredible people, please join our free, fabulous community. You'll get a welcoming built-in support system grounded in the values of diversity, equity, inclusion. You'll have access to bonus episodes, additional resources, courses, webinars, coaching, and so much more. Check it out at risetogether.shegeeksout.com.

Felicia Jadczak:
All right, that's it. Bye.

Rachel Murray:
We did it. Bye.