Geeking Out with Betsy Carlton-Gysan

0:00:03 - Felicia Jadczak Hey Rachel, how's it going?

0:00:05 - Rachel Murray Hey, Felicia, it's going, it's still summertime.

0:00:09 - Felicia Jadczak It is still still. It's still summertime and I'm tired even though I shouldn't be, because I just came off of a nice weekend.

0:00:17 - Rachel Murray But well, that's OK, because you have some big time off coming up.

0:00:23 - Felicia Jadczak That is true, I'm going on sabbatical oh so, unlike me, you did this very intelligently.

0:00:31 - Rachel Murray I was like I'm going to take off December because I know that there's already like a week off because their company shut down the last week of December. Things get nice and quiet. Felicia, you did literally the opposite.

0:00:42 - Felicia Jadczak Well, if I could, if I could, offer a reframe. It was intentional, not intelligent. Oh, as both. Well, if you say so. But yeah, I'm, I'm doing. I'm taking it after a shut down week, so trying to maximize that time off. So I'll be gone for the month of September. So for podcast listeners, don't worry, we are coming to a natural close for our season anyway. So this is actually not the last episode. We have one more coming out after this one, but after that we'll take a little bit of a break and then we're going to start up again later on. But yeah, I'm excited.

I actually have been spending some time this past weekend trying to figure out what I'm doing beyond just like sleeping late and doing nothing. I think I have somewhat of a plan, but I still got to like pull it together. Are you ready to share a little bit? Sure, yeah, so it's a little bit tricky because I do have some, some appointments, like a doctor's appointment or two, that I can't miss and I had to like schedule around that. But the last week of August I'll be in Martha's Vineyard for the Beach Road Festival, which I am volunteering at this year, so that should be exciting. I'm going to be the VIP coordinator and then it'll be some beach time, lovely Coming back, and I foolishly question mark signed up for another pottery class because I've been getting real into pottery, knowing full well that I'll probably miss like at least half of the sessions.

So, whatever that's happening, then I'll be around for a little bit and we have a really cool music festival that's happening almost literally in my backyard where it's kind of like I think it's called the River Roads Festival, but it feels like a revamp of Lilith Fair. Oh, I kind of feel like maybe they're using it as like a testing zone to see how many people come out, but I'll have like Dar Williams and like just all sorts of cool lady singers and some really excited about that. When is that? That is September, like the first or second week of September. I think it's like the eighth and the ninth, I want to say, or the ninth and the 10th, I don't know what is time somewhere in there. And then I think I'm going to go on like a little mini trip to upstate New York, and you know this, but I don't know if our listeners know like my fantasy is to kind of go away and just like read books for for a while by myself, and so I've been exploring that. So what happened?

0:03:08 - Rachel Murray to Scotland. What happened to outlander? Still there?

0:03:11 - Felicia Jadczak Haven't gotten there yet.

So, first I'm going to upstate New York and then I'm like, hopefully no one's going to stalk me with all these special details, but whatever, I think we're okay. I hope so. We'll see, we'll find out. But yeah, so I'll do that and hang out and upstate New York by myself for a couple of days in a cool Airbnb that's in a place called Well, I won't say where it is, but it's like a shipping container and it's got a lot of like cool, funky stuff to it. So I'm excited about that.

Then I think I'm going to go to visit some friends who do not live near me. So I'm thinking, you know, various places across the US. Then I want to do a week in Scotland and, although I happen to be dating, I'm like should I go to Ireland? Should I go to France? So one of those three locations, lovely week by myself, and then I'm going to come back. Then we're going to have porch bust in my neighborhood, which is going to be the very end of September, and then, probably literally the next day, I'm going to fly out to California for our team retreat. So that is my plan from basically like the 24th of August through the beginning of October.

0:04:20 - Rachel Murray You're going to come back and be like what is even happening? 100%. That'll be exciting. Well, we'll try to hold down the fort while you're out gallivanting and reading lots of books.

0:04:31 - Felicia Jadczak Yes, thank you, and I will be. I will still be around, but not checking email I think that's a very healthy life choice.

0:04:37 - Rachel Murray Yeah, we were very intentional about that at SGO. We, you know everyone talks about that, the burnout like how do you mitigate it, how do you keep things feeling fresh. And so we've decided to shut down last week of August, shut down last week of December, um, and then for our facilitators, um, one month sabbatical, um, after two years, because Woof, being a facilitator in this space is wild, um, and so, yeah, so that's just a little bit of you know, and of course, all the other PTO, unlimited holidays, you know, and we've simply worked on bias, but I think we have a pretty good set of benefits and culture here.

0:05:18 - Felicia Jadczak We try to be very intentional about it because it is hard work.

0:05:23 - Rachel Murray So it is, and you know there's a lot of conversation around like the four day work week. I personally can't abide by that because I feel like I would just squish everything into four days and then feel really stressed anyway. So my ideal work schedule would be like Ford it for our work day, five days a week. Yeah that would be ideal, If I could just get everything done magically you know, it's ideal is getting paid and not doing any more. Oh, I don't know I feel really guilty about that. I think that would.

0:05:53 - Felicia Jadczak I think that would dissipate within a certain time.

0:05:56 - Rachel Murray Are you talking about universal basic income?

This is what we're talking about 100%, definitely here for that. We should absolutely have that as a country. I've been reading poverty by America, which I highly recommend everyone read. I'm only like a quarter of the way through the book, but it is incredibly eye-opening and important read about poverty in this country.

We are definitely a very special in a bad way country with regard to poverty and a lot of it has to do with the workforce and the workplace and the way employees are treated across the board and we do a lot of conversation around a lot of different types of workers. But the balance of power and a lot of it has to do with the unions dissipating for most workers and therefore the collective bargaining power is gone and all of these laws have been put into place to make it really, really hard for employees to form a union as we all know, because we've seen that happen and get retribution. Even though they're not supposed to, they still do, and companies are more than happy to take whatever the little slap on the wrist financial punishment is If it means that they can do things to make sure that they stay very wealthy.

0:07:17 - Felicia Jadczak So it's not good, I know, it's just it's so wild, like what you just said to made me think like it's just so wild how, you know, the punishment doesn't always fit the crime and exactly that, like in cases like oh, we're union busting, oh no, fine S. Oh well, whatever it doesn't have any impact on companies, which is why they continue to break the law. And then you have stuff like I mean, it's a whole other conversation, but just the stuff we're seeing around, sort of like a you know what's happening in a post row world around people getting put in jail for trying to have abortions and all the stuff where it's just so out of the realm of what we think is decent. You know, like people, women or people who can carry pregnancies, having miscarriages, and getting put in jail for that, like it's literally not in their control.

0:08:05 - Rachel Murray Yeah, we are. We have toxic individuality, I think, as a society in this country right now and we do not look out for each other in many, many ways. But that's okay. Barbie's really popular, Anyway, why don't we talk about who our guest is?

0:08:21 - Felicia Jadczak Yes, Well, I'm excited for today's guest because I've got a little bit of history with her, so we will talk all about that when we actually get into the podcast. But our guest today is Betsy Carlton-Gysan, vice President of Green Shift, a company called Rare, and she talked to us about her career journey, navigating the pandemic climate change and how we can inspire change on multiple levels. So a nice tie into what you were just chatting about with toxic individuality. Yeah, how can we handle stuff on more than just one level? So hopefully you enjoy the conversation.

Yay, All right. Hey Rachel, hey Felicia and listeners, I want to introduce our other guest for today, who is Betsy Carlton Giesen, VP of Green Shift at Rare. Hey Betsy, hey Felicia.

0:09:11 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan It's good to see you, you too, Rachel.

0:09:14 - Rachel Murray So lovely to meet you. I know you two go way back, so thanks for letting me crash this party.

0:09:20 - Felicia Jadczak Yes, we went to business school together over a decade ago, as we were just saying, before we hit record, which is wild.

0:09:27 - Rachel Murray Innocent times, innocent times, remember, remember, 2011?.

0:09:32 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan At this point barely. I feel like the last three years have just spread themselves out to an extent where everything before is fuzzy kind of, with those nostalgia waves you see on TV.

0:09:43 - Rachel Murray Totally.

0:09:44 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, yeah, I mean we also there was. The school was intense for a lot of reasons. There are definitely things that I don't remember, but not because of the pandemic.

0:09:53 - Rachel Murray Well, now I'm like I want to get into that Now. I want to get into this whole business school situation. As someone who did not go to business school, I'm always fascinated to hear. What is it really like?

0:10:04 - Felicia Jadczak You know there's a lot of drinking. That's like college.

0:10:07 - Rachel Murray Okay, that's the same.

0:10:10 - Felicia Jadczak Well, it depends on your college experience. I didn't drink a lot of college there.

0:10:14 - Rachel Murray I actually didn't either. I don't know what I'm talking about, but apparently that's what people do. I see it in the movies.

0:10:20 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yeah, and I have to. I was already married and in my 30s when I went to business schools, so my experience was a little bit different than some.

0:10:30 - Rachel Murray And now I want to ask you questions about what drove you there. But that gets to basically our first question.

0:10:35 - Felicia Jadczak I mean, I think let's, let's get into it, like, tell us about your journey. So obviously I was one step along the way, but I would love to hear, we would love to hear more about kind of how you came to be in this world. And I will just note too, before I pass it over to you, betsy, that I remember like early days of business school and being like, oh my God, this girl is so cool, Like because of all your stuff that you have been doing, when you came into school and I was like, oh, she's so cool, I'm like hip and whatever. So let's talk more about that. So tell us about you.

0:11:06 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan All right. Well, first of all, thank you, and we won't ask what your opinion was at the end of business school, but you know I'll take that it was very positive.

0:11:17 - Felicia Jadczak We never worked on like a team together, so I think that definitely helped always.

0:11:22 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan But so my journey is a kind of splintered one that I think weaves together in a nice way, but I have had on paper a couple of different careers, and so I began working on political campaigns, kind of during and fresh out of college, for a lot of really great people Mostly great people, not everyone and after about five years of that decided that I wanted to be employed 12 months a year and to sign a lease and have an address, and so permanently settled well, as permanent as it gets in your mid 20s in DC and began working at organizations that also focused on electoral elements and acting change that way. And the first position was actually at a place called the League of Conservation Voters, which is where my interest in the environment really picked up that I had been issues driven and injustice driven from the beginning, but primarily focused on women's equality and candidates that were really out there for women and were out there for people of color and folks who are low income and all of those who get marginalized and treated really badly by systems. And LTV opened my eyes to the impact environment has on all of those issues as well, and so from there, continued working in that political space for, I guess about a decade total, including a number of fundraising positions, which is what I had done on campaigns, and then also did pretty much every aspect of nonprofit development and also began dabbling and this was the early 2000s in what was then termed online communications now we refer to as digital. And after you know, looking at what I had in front of me, I was turning 30. And I think that prompts a little soul searching from a lot of people and realized that I couldn't see myself following the tracks that were natural for people who were in my position, either becoming a campaign consultant and making a lot of money or continuing to do development at bigger organizations, but essentially the same thing in different settings.

And when I step back and explored what I had really liked about the work I had been doing was, I realized that budgets and projections and technology and data were really big pieces. And that is what inspired the business school experience and selected Boston University, where we both went, because of its joint MBA program with a masters and education systems, which allowed me to dive deeper into technology. And what I really love is technology as a strategic tool versus an end in itself, and how it can really support and help advance a program, and that it also had a strong cohort of people who were interested in the nonprofit sector, were interested in the healthcare sector, and so I knew there would be some like minded folks who really saw business as an opportunity to make good impact. So while I was there, explored what made the most sense, leaving you know what skills had I brought with me into business school that I could transition in.

The nonprofit to for profit transition and a lot of development and fundraising work over overlaps quite nicely with marketing, and so that became an area of focus and, from a an industry perspective, I wanted to make sure that what I did next still had a mission component to it and ended up learning about the clean energy space, falling in love with it, because it was just this wild, interesting frontier that could have incredible impact on multiple elements of people's lives.

You know, economic, environmental, help, increase electricity access to people in rural spots and Boston is a great place for clean energy just tons of interesting new technologies coming out of universities and a lot of cool startups.

And so I worked in that space for a couple of years, first doing energy programs for a large company and then smaller company, and then I fell in love with startups, which had the same great energy and absolute lack of stability that campaigns do, and ended up working in the SaaS space the software space for a couple of years and found myself in 2020 at a job that I had thought would be my absolute ideal. I had joined a company called every action in their product strategy or to develop their product strategy function, and was working with a bunch of people I had known from my early DC days. Our clients were fantastic nonprofits and political campaigns, but groups like Planned Parenthood and NAACP Legal Defense Fund, riec is Audubon, and I had moved in February of 2020 to from the product strategy function to take over the marketing team as VP and, as I'm sure the date jumps out, it doesn't seem momentous at all.

0:18:15 - Felicia Jadczak I don't know where you're talking about.

0:18:17 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan It was just a personal thing, yeah, that I took over this team of six that were all based in DC and I'm based in Boston and was traveling back and forth every other week and the world shut down and so our strategy was built largely on in person contact, conferences and events and networking, and so clearly that needed to be thrown out and redone. The team a lot of them were younger in their careers and in living situations that made it really tough to be working from home and isolated, either living alone or with roommates where they were stuck in their bedroom the whole time, and so the focus really shifted from just working to figure out a good marketing strategy to kind of coaching and supporting this group of people through a lot of change and transition. And you know, as I think is pretty common, really working with the whole person became an essential part of being a manager as opposed to just, you know, working with people professionally and you know, kind of fast forward a little bit. And so I was going into the fall, working 6070 hours a week. I had a kindergartner and a preschooler that no longer had anywhere they were supposed to be during the day that we're running around. A marketing strategy that needed to be completely rebuilt and I was pretty happy with that and, just emotionally done, you know, giving everything I had to others.

And it kind of came to a head a little bit when my younger one used to hearing this is a very important call and I have to take an important call. I'll come find you in a little bit came up to me at my desk and asked you know, can I make a meeting? I have a meeting because I'm a very important person and my heart just cracked and I realized that what I was doing was unsustainable on multiple fronts. And at that time we had a new chief revenue officer join, which gave me a lovely opportunity to exit, and exit smoothly, and I did, and that was in December of 2020. And so I gave myself a month to decompress and just be human and try to reconnect with family and learn how to be stressed myself a little bit and had the privilege to. After that time was over, which, if I'm going to be honest, it's really more like six weeks, seven weeks, and four.

0:21:26 - Felicia Jadczak I'm like a month after everything you just described. I mean, obviously we all live through it too, but I feel like a month is not enough 100%.

0:21:35 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Thank you for saying that. I feel better now because it ended up stretching into nine.

0:21:39 - Felicia Jadczak Oh I mean well, great, I should start saying well, nine doesn't sound like an, but actually nine does sound lovely.

0:21:50 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yeah it was. I was starting to hit the point where I was like, okay, my brain needs something again. But during that time I had the privilege to really step back and not have to worry about finding something immediately and to look at where I was and look at what I was doing and realize that it wasn't just that position and it wasn't just COVID that made things unsustainable, but that since business school I kind of I went out and I fought really hard to get that first position and since then I had just moved and I'll admit I tend to move a lot. I'm more of it every two years kind of person that I never 15. I get it and and I had accepted opportunities that came up and looked interesting, which is not something that I looked down upon at all. I actually have had wonderful experiences.

I never would have predicted by doing that throughout my life, but that where I ended up was not intentional and it wasn't a great fit for me. That marketing made the transition from nonprofit to for-profit better, but I don't love it. And there are other things that I enjoy more and am able to put more of myself into and working at a company, you know, an equity backed company that was really geared towards boosting profits and being able to flip for an exit in a couple of years. That really motivates some people. But I am not one of them and decided that I wanted. I didn't want to support groups doing good work anymore. I wanted to be one of them. And then, and if I was going to do that, it needed to either be climate change or democracy, because both were in peril and existential in my estimation.

0:23:55 - Rachel Murray I have no idea what you're talking about. What I know, I know.

0:23:58 - Felicia Jadczak Once again, I'm just thinking about why I'm like I'm so excited that we're on a call together because I don't know why I didn't think to do this like earlier, to be really honest. But it feels like it's so aligned with what, Rachel, you're passionate about and like some of the stuff you've done, so I'm like, yes, let's get into it and talk about it.

0:24:15 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan I love it. I love it. This is stuff I can geek out about forever Amazing and and also looked at life and realized you know, by nature I am a throw myself in and work until the work is done person have never been, you know, a clock watcher I tend to leave my desk at seven more than at five and that it was time for that to change. That I wanted there to be more of a work life balance. I wanted to learn what it was like to have a hobby. I wanted to work in an environment where there wasn't a lot of competition and the focus was really on the work and instead of on personal achievement. That I wanted to do it from home, because cutting out commuting time makes a huge difference in a working parents life and being able to put in enough work time and enough home time.

And, miraculously, I still don't understand how the stars aligned to make this happen. Oh, and I wanted to do this all without stepping back in seniority or salary, going from Wow to nonprofit. Wow, because I had, I think, fallen into a trap a lot of women fall into of when I was switching from nonprofit to for profit, saying, well, I've only done this on the nonprofit side or have only done it each year. So I don't I shouldn't go in at the same title, I should go in at the you know a step back. And then, of course, without step back, you don't make the same amount of money.

And so I recognize that I had sold myself short, and part of the experience I had after grad school was that I was really bored in a lot of my positions because they were not at the level that I was used to doing and they weren't bad jobs, but I had already done them and I wanted to do the next thing, and so I found rare, and this position I have now, which is I get to use all of the skills that are what drove me to business school.

You know, I'm essentially the GM of a small company inside this nonprofit. I am working with a team of smart, talented people that have really diverse backgrounds. You know everything from the entertainment industry to multinational corporation, $100 billion add budgets to you name it and it is an environment where people are helpful, where they support each other. I have work life balance and, at the end of the day, instead of assessing whether I was successful based on revenue, it's on greenhouse gas averted going into the atmosphere and so, and because it's a nonprofit, I am competing in a marketplace where I can also turn around and be like you could buy it, but I can also give you it for free, so that part's pretty fun.

0:27:38 - Felicia Jadczak What a journey.

0:27:41 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan And I cut out lots.

0:27:43 - Rachel Murray Amazing, it's so impressive. I mean, you're you just. You hit the nail on the head about how I mean particularly women, but I mean you just, and I mean really anyone who is typically undervalues themselves. You name the identity does that exactly that it's really hard to advocate for yourself and get what it is that you want and do something that you love. So it is beautiful to see that you were at this organization at a stage in your career, in your life, that you are getting what you care about, what you value, and I can tell I know obviously I just met you that you clearly are passionate about the work and you you want, you crave more, and that's what's so cool and exciting, especially being in this space, and I'm sure that you work with other people that are probably in the same mindset, which is also exciting.

0:28:37 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yeah, it's, it's pretty great and I do, I love it and it's. The gratitude I feel for being able to wake up in the morning and want to go to work is enormous.

0:28:51 - Rachel Murray Huge, huge, and I just want to get into it because, like Felicia said she knows, let's do it. Yeah, I mean I would love to hear more about Rare's philosophy. I've looked on the site and it looks like it's a lot about individual action and I would love to learn more about the philosophy and why that angle. Tell me everything, tell us everything, tell the listeners everything.

0:29:17 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Absolutely, and I feel like I can brag a little bit about the rare part, because I'm new enough and I had nothing to do with this part that I can actually be like ah, I love it so. Rare is about 50 years old and primarily has done work outside of the United States, so that is why a lot of people have not heard of it. Climate culture, the program that I am a part of, is our first US based program and that was started about three years ago, and the focus of Rare's work is figuring out how to foster change in communities in a way that helps both people and nature thrives. And the way I've heard it described and I love this is that you know we don't need to work on nature. Nature is fine, it doesn't need to change anything.

What we need to work on is how people interact with nature, and traditionally that has been working in communities that are their livelihoods, are connected to the natural world, and so one of our biggest programs, called fish forever, works with fishing communities and I think they've worked in 60 countries and undergo a process that is really working with the community, where we are founded in behavior science. We actually have a team of behavior scientists on staffs, and our goal is to help communities decide for themselves how to best manage their resources. And so you know, using what we have learned and we know works after rigorous testing. And so, for example, there are fish forever. Folks will go in and a community will be dynamite fishing or individuals will be dynamite fishing because that is what gets the biggest catch for that individual person and they're able to feed their family, but obviously that's not sustainable long term, and so work with the community to understand what is the current context, what are the important values, how are things currently structured, who you know, how do people interact with each other and how are things governed, and then collaboratively work with that community to come up with a system to manage those resources that will be self-cleased, and develop a system where the resources are managed, which is better for long term economic livelihood and sustainability, in addition to allowing reefs to grow back and coral to come back and fish stocks not to be completely depleted, and have supplemented that as well with filling in other gaps that the community may need.

So, for example, we have an innovative finance team that has set up banking, because a lot of these communities are unbanked, and that has massive impact on, in particular, women and whether or not families can be prepared, you know, should there be a bad season or something that you know that they need to have reserves. They've also started working on developing a series of insurance, you know, and community supported insurance, and so the Fish Forever team, as I mentioned, is doing this across the globe. We also have a lands for life team that focuses on regenerative agriculture. And then there is climate culture, which is focused on US behavior change around climate, because, per capita, we are the worst and so we can have, you know, real impact if we can get those numbers down.

0:33:25 - Rachel Murray Well, I'm so glad you brought that last one up, because that's the one that's been sticking in my head, especially, as you know, we're headed toward even more, you know, I think, climate refugees right. So you're talking about supporting communities, but so many of these communities have been impacted by large industrial countries, ours being the worst, if not one of the worst, if not the worst, in many different ways. So I'm so curious how you're doing, how you're supporting that, because I was thinking about the example that you gave about supporting these fishing communities, and that's such a practical thing saying, okay, the dynamite fishing, we're going to support that. But I'm thinking about like, oh well, there's lack of fish and that's largely because there's climate change is like killing all of the fish in the ocean. So how do you support that when there are folks that are like this is naming of my control?

Oh, and I do want to say one other thing. I just love that you sorry, I'm going to let you answer. I promise this is exactly what. This is what Felicia was worried about. She was worried, but one thing I just want to say is I just I always use this when I think about this particular topic is like the George Carlin comment, which you basically refer to by saying you know, we're not protecting the planet. That is just hubris, like the planet's going to be fine. We're the ones that are screwed. So I just wanted to just acknowledge that. Yeah, now I'll put myself back on mute.

0:34:52 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan So let me see let me parse this for a sec the way that we handle climate change and its impact in the global programs. Actually, I'm going to back up for a second to restart that sentence. Yeah too. So in terms of how climate change impacts our programs outside the US, we have been discussing this in large part because we started climate culture, which is our you know where's quote unquote climate change program, and when we talk about it, everything we do is climate change. Everything anybody does in connection to the natural world is climate change or, frankly, business, or so many things, because we've just screwed things up so royally and have to act so quickly that the impacts are everywhere, and you know so. In terms of how those programs are handling it and I wish there are people that I could bring in right now. They can talk to it much better than I can but you know, all of the conditions in the context are put into the plan that the Fish Forever team works on with the communities where they're working, and so it's kind of naturally integrated in that way.

The way that we are trying to address it in climate culture and in the program that I'm in are to one recognize the impacts that we're having, and you know, we know that it's a matter of mitigating suffering as opposed to eliminating at this point, and that, unfortunately, the impacts across the global south are going to be so much worse than they are in the countries that are really responsible for what's happening in the world, and so that's the kind of thing that's going to happen. But that guilt tends to turn people off and cause them to pull away a little bit, and which is a totally instinctual kind of human reaction it's a lizard brain thing Like this makes me feel bad. I don't know what to do with this. This is overwhelming, and so I'm just going to go and do this thing that I can do, you know, which could be ignoring it completely. It could be recycling, you know.

But we know that there are actions that people can take that are the ones that have the greatest impact, and the reason that rare decided to enter the United States was because we saw a gap, or I should say they did this was before I was on board but that there are lots of organizations that are working to address policy and regulations, that are working on individual things like energy generation, working with companies to help them require reporting of their climate impacts. You know, actually, all of their ESG impact, so you know governance and labor and all of those important pieces as well, and that the individual behavior piece was somewhat of an open element in that there is a growing recognition that individual behavior has to be a part of this integrated set of things that are happening in order to move us as fast as we need to move, and our approach within the program is that we are trying to move people to a 2030 lifestyle now and meaning that soon people are going to have to be making climate smart decisions, because we're not going to have the choice, it's just going to have to be the defaults, and we're already starting to see that with car manufacturers reducing or potentially eliminating their gas powered car lines. You know, down the road with long term planning, that there are building codes being put in place where you cannot build a structure of a certain size without accounting for solar power being included or another clean energy source, and unfortunately not in as many places. But it's a start and we want people to move to that quicker, and we know that people look to each other for cues and that the best indicator of whether somebody is going to take an action like putting solar on their roof is whether or not their neighbor has it, as opposed to. You know, here's the financial incentive, or here is information. That people look to each other and that is where the behavior science piece really fits in Is because you know to use the behavior science terminology.

We need to promote the social norming of things.

We need to promote people's sense of self efficacy, meaning they see it and they feel like, yes, I can do that.

And we have set things up so that we're focusing on the four most impactful areas of food, energy, transportation and supporting projects that suck carbon out of the air, and so and we are also doing that across channels.

So the program green shift that I'm building is a workplace focused program. We also have an entertainment lab where they are working with a lot of Hollywood studios and content creators to have workshops and provide information about how to incorporate the inclusion of everything from vegetarian meals to solar panels to EVs into the content that we're seeing and interacting with. We have a social media channel and we have a community channel that is working with our first city is actually here in Boston and a number of cultural institutions, museums, speaking with sports teams bringing exhibits to higher education institutions, like we just finished a really great installation around graduation at Brandeis. The PbD Essex Museum has done a lot of climate focused work and we have partnered with them on a great deal of that and with the idea that the more you see it, the more it seems normal, the more likely people are to take these actions, and so I know I veered this a little bit, but, as you can tell, I'm pretty excited about it.

0:41:48 - Felicia Jadczak No, no, no, it's all good. There's so much, Rachel, and I have been taking notes on the back end because you're just sharing a ton of really important, interesting stuff. I feel like there's like 10 million things we can dig into further, but I want to kind of come back to sort of or I guess not even come back to, but but react to some of what you've even just shared. So it sounds like and I'm going to really be over simplifying a lot here, so bear with me but it sounds like there's this push from rare to figure out how to get, as you just said, like the social norming of this. So that helps accelerate these timelines.

And I'm interested because you also had said earlier that rare is thinking that it sounds like you're focusing more on the individual actions as opposed to the, like, corporate level actions. And I feel like I don't want to go on this tangent, but I'm like is this because corporations are people too, but that's another discussion for another day. But I'm interested in that, in that dynamic, because I don't agree with that, by the way.

0:42:45 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan No, I know, I know you don't. I'm feeling sorry.

0:42:50 - Felicia Jadczak I'm interested because, to me, I feel like this is making me think of that push a couple years ago around plastic straws and how everyone was like plastic straws are killing the sea turtles and ocean life and oh my gosh, we have to get rid of plastic straws. And of course there was a whole kind of like counter backlash from the disability community. And then there was a counter, counter backlash because people were like, hey, listen, plastic straws are not like the issue. The issue is companies who are doing all this stuff and destroying the ocean life. The plastic straws is like a placebo effect, almost to get people think that they're doing something. And then I'm oh my gosh, I'm going off on tangent now too.

No, I love, I love recycling and I'm like is recycling a thing or not? So I guess my question is it's got to be both right. It can't just be individual actions. It can't. I mean, I don't know, I guess it does any of that makes sense for you to respond to.

0:43:45 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan It does, and I'm kind of bouncing like if we were having a beer right now I'd be bouncing off my chair and be like um. So I agree with both of the back lashes. Actually, you know that I swear I don't know how the plastic straw things started, but I feel like it's, you know, some sort of a straw man that the oil industry just like put in there to be like we can distract them.

0:44:13 - Felicia Jadczak Yes, I'm like the conspiracy theorist and me is that the marketing person for like big oil was like guess what? We're going to distract people over here.

0:44:23 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yes, and to get away from the plastic straw specific. I think the point about the disability community is something you know people really need to think about the practical impact of making certain types of suggestions and changing things so that you know, removing straws or making you know silver only silverware that is too heavy for some people to be able to pick up, like that kind of stuff, has real life impact for a lot of people. So we, you know these aren't abstract ideas. But to the more important point I think of what you're saying is not that the disability component is important, but the company's piece is that, um, yeah, companies need to be responsible, and one of the things, um, and this is one piece of that this is by no means excusing companies Um, but I had been incredibly surprised, in a good way, with the approach that I am finding from a number of companies, and ones that I didn't expect.

So I am a cynic, I'm very jaded, Thank you. My time in politics and I always approach things from the perspective of okay, what's the hard bottom line that makes sense. You know, Walmart is incredible in terms of its sustainability efforts and that is because they saw a business advantage as opposed to it being a good hearted thing which is ultimately let's be real Walmart's not in the business of touchy feely and money.

0:46:06 - Rachel Murray It's all about money at the end of the day.

0:46:09 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah you know what I mean and like part of me is like like I and I think we're on the same page here Like if that's how they get to it, sure, right, like we talk about that a lot in like the DEI work that I do, I'm like it's the entry point to bring someone along. So, like you know, yes, I agree. Like in that sense, kudos to Walmart, but also it's like money.

0:46:28 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yeah, yeah, give some of the money to your workers. But the what I have found talking to a number of executives at various companies and like financial services and technology, as well as ones that I would have you know put more in the in the B Corp kind of space, is that they actually care and so I don't have to fight as hard on the business case. But in that, they're getting pressure from all over. They're getting pressure from their employees, they're getting pressure from their investors and shareholders, they're getting pressure from the market and they're getting. You know, they're having to put a stake in the ground when it comes to climate and an ESG and environment, whether they want to or not, and that a lot of them have made net zero pledges or they've made pledges about greening supply chains and then all of a sudden they're like how do we do that?

And working, they're the obvious steps, and by obvious they don't mean easy, I just mean obvious. You know, like greening supply chains, looking at manufacturing, where does your power come from? Do you have a clean power purchase agreement? That I think those were a lot of the steps that companies took a few years ago and they got very big impact for those investments and now it's not as easy. And so to put in a little plug for green shift which, as I said, sometimes we just work with companies because they let us gather data, in case you're listening and are interested that you can edit that out if you, need to know we're keeping it in.

Excellent that companies are recognizing that, especially in a more remote or hybrid environment, that their employees can be a great resource for change and that the actions that people take are ones that could help with their reporting and and all of you know what's referred to as scope three their different levels of emissions reporting I won't get quite that level of nerdy and that there's also a cultural shift within the companies that can take place, and that by engaging their employees on their values this is something that you know 76%, I believe, is the current statistic, for how many Americans are worried or very worried about climate change.

They want to see their values reflected back to them and their employer, and that is having massive impact on employee retention, on employee attraction, and so if they want engaged employees, this is a place where they can make it happen and by encouraging that mindset, those employees will also take that, that lens and apply it to their daily jobs, like there was a a travel and expeditions that we did a pilot with, and one of our core areas, because it has massive environmental impact, is food People eating less beef, you know, and that doesn't mean perfect vegetarian or vegan.

It means if you eat four burgers a month cut it down to two. That has real impact. And the food component inspired the person who's in charge of catering on their ships to make certain changes that had huge impacts on the company's carbon emissions, as well as helping to reinforce their, their brand and image as a an environmentally friendly company. You know so that there's all sorts of advantages that are there for the companies and there's a whole lot of sticks if they're not doing this from with the pressure from all of these different groups. And yeah, nice, yeah, they need to act there. They're critical component.

0:50:40 - Rachel Murray Yeah, that's, that's really. That's encouraging, because I've definitely been on the side of like. Why am I even recycling? You know, I get really annoyed with stuff like that because it just feels like the mountain is so big and we don't have enough agency to really make change without likes, unless we do it through legislation and and encouraging our government officials to push for it. I do appreciate, after hearing you speak about it, the approach of like, really getting these communities to engage in a way that forces larger organizations to pay attention. I dig it. I dig it. I want, I would love to, to follow up, to change up is a little bit to learn a little bit about, because I noticed that with rare, you also talk about gender equity and would love to just learn about what rare is doing with regard to gender equity in this space.

0:51:39 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan So a lot of our gender equity work is in our global programs and it's really infused and filtered throughout that, due to the, the structures of a lot of these communities the farming communities and fishing communities Oftentimes women are, you know, out there doing the back breaking work but are not necessarily in an equal position of status within the community or, you know, similar to you know, issues that affect women everywhere don't necessarily have the economic resources to be able to be more independent, and so that is gender equity. And empowering fishers, empowering women who are in all of these communities, is an element of how the, you know, the, the resources, women are a key part of developing the plan of the community and making sure that that women and girls are women and families, since women so often are primary caregivers, that that their needs are incorporated into the overall plan, that it's not just the men of the community and also the impact of the programs like banking and insurance and things have a very strong impact on women and providing them the, the resources to be able to be an equal player in the communities. Yeah, and so I'm not able to speak as knowledge, knowledgeably about that, as people who are on the ground with those programs. But one of the things I've really liked about rare is the commitment to DEIJ. That kind of permeates throughout.

We are by no means perfect. There's obviously still work to do, as there is everywhere, but there are a lot of women in leadership roles throughout the organization and there is a lot of work going on to ensure that, even though the headquarters is the US that from you know we're engaging and bringing in a lot of the in-country folks in leadership roles as well as addressing the equity issues that come with being part of the environmental movement, which is historically white and male and elitist, and so I don't see as much of it in my day-to-day. But that's because I work with anybody who's at work and if a company is doing its job, I'm working with a lot of women.

0:54:40 - Felicia Jadczak Love that. I can't believe we've almost talked for an hour at this point, so I'm going to make another little shift here. We could probably keep digging into this further, but I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to something you mentioned in the very beginning, which was when you sort of hit this wall and you took some time off and you're like I want to figure out what a hobby is. As I think you know, geek out is in our name. We're super into figuring out what are people excited about. But I'm just curious, like did you come up with a hobby when you took your nine months off and, if so, what is?

0:55:16 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan it, yes, but I'm still not great at it. But I started gardening, which I love that. You know the huge impact of nature, whether it be hiking or just like digging your hands into the dirt, really is just incredible, and I love being able to pick things that I've grown and cook them and eat them.

0:55:47 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I want to hear how to salad this today for lunch from my garden. It's amazing. It's amazing we're just old, but like there's nothing like it.

0:55:56 - Rachel Murray No, it's delicious. What are like some of your top vegetable situations?

0:56:03 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Well, in the hearty climate of Boston have had incredible luck with the Gord family. Amazing the first year we grew pumpkins and actually had four 20 pound pumpkins for Halloween. And these are little raised beds Like this is not some, you know, I don't live in some, you know, ex-urban place with a giant yard. I'm, you know, in the center of a fairly urban town so and have had butternut squash that lasted through the entirety of the winter. Yeah, the Gord's really like our yard, I love that that's just solid.

0:56:52 - Rachel Murray So I'm spoiled because I'm in Southern California. We, you know, we have like lemon trees and lime trees and strawberries and stupid, but I feel very lucky. But we still lettuce, which is also wonderful for salads. Also curious what is your favorite way to practice self-care that is not gardening?

0:57:14 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Oh, that's hard. I'm not very good at it yet. So my routine I'm still struggling to get it a little bit more cemented since COVID threw it off. But I started boxing, which I love, and because it is impossible to think about anything but what you were doing when you were doing it.

0:57:41 - Rachel Murray Yeah, you gotta count.

0:57:42 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan You gotta count. Yeah, gotta count, you gotta move. I'm not so great at having my hands and feet do different things at the same time, 100%. So you know there's there's that issue to deal with, and being able to be physical and, just you know, hit things or kick things or is just so cathartic.

0:58:03 - Rachel Murray I'll tell you, during the last general election I was doing Les Mills body combat like pretty much every day and I literally sign off on Slack being like I'm going to go and punch and kick the air right now. See you Very cathartic, I'm 100% with you on that. Yeah.

0:58:23 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, you know, it's such a great way to just get, get whatever it is out. And yeah, the pre-COVID world. That's why I used to love rock climbing, because it would just like erase your brain. And you know it's great, I'm a fan of it.

0:58:36 - Rachel Murray Would you get back into that, Alicia?

0:58:40 - Felicia Jadczak I hope my husband doesn't listen to this episode. So he bought me. He bought me a gift certificate to like our local rock climbing gym for Christmas 2021.

0:58:53 - Rachel Murray 2022. 2021. Okay, it was 2021.

0:58:57 - Felicia Jadczak I went, I went to look at it and I think I think what happened was last summer. I was like I'm going to go and like you know, I try to take these summer Fridays and I was like I'm going to do a whole thing and I just never did. And you know, again, like I love it, I want to go back, but now it's just become a thing you know how that happens Like it just becomes like a thing where I'm like it's too late, so when the clothes but I have the gift certificate, so I really maybe expired no, it's no, these things don't expire. Oh yeah, it's just there. So I got to like just make an appointment.

0:59:34 - Rachel Murray Basically I was trying to give you an excuse by asking you for the expired.

0:59:37 - Felicia Jadczak I know there, I know I'm like calling myself in, and the worst part is that in our living room we have like one of these catchall baskets, you know, by the like, one of the side tables with just like jumping it, and I put the piece of paper in that so it would like stick out and remind me. And I look at it every day and at this point it's just become part of the landscape. So like my brain doesn't even think, it doesn't even feel bad, and I look at that.

Yeah, 100% Anyway yeah, this is my. This has become now the podcast of Felicia's shape.

1:00:09 - Rachel Murray We have time, I think, for like one more question. Felicia, do you want to pick one?

1:00:15 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I mean, why don't we just go with you know what? Like yeah, what are you geeking out about? That's like I mean. I think gardening was like your hobby and it can't be about what you do for a living.

1:00:31 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Yeah, I think you've gathered I can geek out about that quite a bit.

1:00:34 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, yeah, we into it in a little bit.

1:00:38 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan I get excited about things. I think I have been geeking out about music since I was in elementary school and that is a passion that continues, where I will hear a song I like and then I will chase it down and then I will listen to the catalog and then I will look into where the band is from and then I want to tell everybody about my new favorite band.

1:01:01 - Rachel Murray And yeah, do you know what's sorry? No, no, go ahead. I know you were going to ask and I love that question.

1:01:07 - Felicia Jadczak I was going to ask what's your latest favorite band, but I also want to know what you were going to ask.

1:01:11 - Rachel Murray Yes, do you want to answer that one first?

1:01:15 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Right now I am very into Wolf, Alice and Parquet courts. Love that. Oh, and the vaccines.

1:01:21 - Rachel Murray I haven't heard of any of them. I don't know if any of these great, but I want. Yes, we'll. We got to get the list afterwards. Send us the list of things. I will send you links. You were talking to two people who love music also, and I give Felicia a lot of credit for like going to concerts and she's inspired me. There's a band that I just heard of called Waves W A V V S, and I'm actually going to a rock concert. I'm like, what even do I wear Like?

1:01:54 - Felicia Jadczak a rock concert in this day and age. I'm like comfortable shoes.

1:02:01 - Rachel Murray Yeah, legit, tank top Converse sneakers like a fanny pack probably sounds good Like the freedom of being older is glorious, so funny. But like, but back in the day I was very big into it and I think, as it is, as we get older, it's so easy I think a lot of folks start to lose the thread, and so I just applaud you on, like super so being into music, because and both of you actually, and now myself, I will include myself- in plotting myself as literally putting myself right.

1:02:31 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan There's nothing like live music. Have a wonderful time.

1:02:34 - Rachel Murray Thank you, I'm so excited. I booked actually a couple of different things. I just went on a kick this past weekend and I was like, I've heard of these bands, they're nearby and they're not $500 tickets, because that's. The other thing is, I'm not going to see a big show anymore. I've just made the. Unless I get free tickets, I'm not going to a stadium show because it's stupid. You may as well just listen to a live album at home. You get the same thing with less COVID.

1:02:56 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan I completely agree. The only exception, though, is I had a friend reach out last week about Pink is coming to Fenway, and I've heard so many incredible things about her live performances and how she's become a full aerialist and you know she's doing. It's like going to the circus, and, and the final selling point was that Pat Benatar is opening. Oh what? And I like this woman changed the face of rock and roll. Yeah, it was a classically trained opera singer who could do four full octaves. Yep, like I just I was. I took voice lessons and did classical training for years and years, and so, like the amount of time I have spent singing along to Pat Benatar is just immense.

1:03:51 - Rachel Murray I've always been too chicken to take voice lessons. I applaud you for that. I can't applaud myself for that yet.

1:03:59 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan Always time. There's always time and the the freedom again of getting older and not holding yourself to such ridiculously high standards and worrying so much about what other people think I love that, yeah, yeah, johnny.

1:04:14 - Rachel Murray Johnny Mitchell is my inspiration. That woman she's back, she's performing. That's incredible. It's incredible after having a stroke. I mean just phenomenal with Brandy Carlisle she's doing stuff. I know it's kind of amazing. What a wonderful note to end on yeah note literally Good stuff, oh my gosh.

1:04:38 - Felicia Jadczak Well, betsy, thank you so much. If people want to learn more about you, rare anything else that you've talked about today, what's the best way for folks to to learn more?

1:04:48 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan So rareorg and it's R-A-R-E so simple that it gets confusing. It gives you lots of information about all of the work that we're doing globally and rareorg slash green shift all one word, if you're interested in learning about our employer focused program, that I'm currently in the midst of updating that information and I am always looking for feedback companies. If you just want to geek out about it, all of our contact info is there Awesome.

1:05:27 - Felicia Jadczak Thank you so much. Thanks, betsy, thank you.

1:05:31 - Betsy Carlton-Gysan This is fun.

1:05:35 - Rachel Murray Thank you for listening. We appreciate you, as always. Just a few quick notes before we say goodbye. So this is our second to last episode. Before we shut down, we have our little shutdown week, which we've already discussed. We have some things that are coming up in September that we're very excited about. So first we have our September webinar, which is integrating embodiment and semantics in your DEI work, which is happening on September 19th, and then we're doing a virtual workshop called Cultivating Emotional Intelligence for Leaders, and that is happening on September 29th, and I hope that you all come and learn with us, because they are really important topics and you don't even have to travel no, from the comfort of your own Zoom. There you go.

1:06:23 - Felicia Jadczak Well, thank you all so much for listening. Please don't forget to rate, share and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and, by extension, our work. Make sure to tune in for our next and final episode of the season in two weeks, yay.

1:06:39 - Rachel Murray If you're looking to further your own knowledge and gain support alongside other incredible people, please join our free community. You'll get a welcoming, built-in support system grounded in the values of diversity, equity and inclusion, and you will have access to bonus episodes, additional resources, courses, webinars, coaching and so much more. So check it out at risetogetherchicaggsoutcom. Bye, Bye.