Geeking Out about DEI Strategy with Allyson Livingstone from athenahealth

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The She+ Geeks Out Podcast
About The Episode Transcript

In this podcast episode, we interview Allyson Livingstone, the Executive Director of Diversity and Inclusion at athenahealth, about her journey into diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) work and her role. We discuss the challenges of implementing DEI initiatives in large organizations and the importance of building trust and open communication between different teams and departments. Allyson also talks about the critical role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) and how they're supported. We also discuss the impact of COVID-19 on this work and the importance of mental health and wellness in leadership and the workplace. The episode ends on a lighthearted note, discussing our love for reality TV and how it relates so well to the work we do!

Felicia Jadczak (00:08): Hey, Rachel.

Rachel Murray (00:09): Hey, Felicia.

Felicia Jadczak (00:10): How's it going?

Rachel Murray (00:11): It is May still.

Felicia Jadczak (00:14): I mean, I know we always talk about time, and how it's a social construct, but I like how you said, "Still," because I feel for me, May feels like it has just started. And for those listening, yes, we're in the time machine. We are actually recording this mid-May, or mid to late May, depending on how you want to slice dice it.

Rachel Murray (00:32): [inaudible 00:00:32] Before this lovely episode comes out.

Felicia Jadczak (00:34): Yeah. So it's not wild, but it's May 18th, and I'm feeling like it's May 2nd. So, I don't know what that means about me, but.

Rachel Murray (00:44): I don't know what that means, but I am glad that you are experiencing time in a slow way, or is it a fast way? No, it's a fast way.

Felicia Jadczak (00:54): I think it's fast, but I think what it really has to do with is here in Western Massachusetts, which is where I'm based, we had a couple really nice warm, hot days, and now it's cold again.

Rachel Murray (01:06): That's rude.

Felicia Jadczak (01:07): For my gardening friends out there, I've been having to run outside every night, and throw sheets over all of our little plants so that they don't freeze to death, because it's too cold now.

Rachel Murray (01:17): So sad. Come on, climate change.

Felicia Jadczak (01:19): Yeah.

Rachel Murray (01:21): I heard El Nino's coming this late fall, so that's something we look forward to, but we don't have to worry about that, because I mean, we can't think about late fall.

Felicia Jadczak (01:30): Late fall. I mean, again, time. What is even time? That's going to be 10 years from now, so I'll worry about that when it comes. Thanks.

Rachel Murray (01:35): I think that sounds like a great plan.

Felicia Jadczak (01:39): Well, we have some exciting things that are happening, which we will tell you about at the end of this glorious episode, but we need to tell you about the interview that we had.

Rachel Murray (01:49): Yeah, it was super fun. So, our guest today is the executive director of diversity and inclusion at a company called athenahealth, and her name is Allyson Livingston, and I've actually met her a bunch of times before this, and fun little side fact, we went to the same college, although I did not know her in college, because we were not quite overlapping, but it was so great to actually chat via this vehicle of the pod, because we just got to get deeper into it.

(02:17): So, I love when you sort of had that jump from social interaction to, "Let's get into some of the work." Because of course her work overlaps with what we do. There's so much synergy, which I know is a word that is overused, but I will use it anyway. So much synergy, and then what I loved is we really get into it at the very end, which I'm not going to spoil for you all right now, but we really get into it.

Felicia Jadczak (02:40): Yeah. I mean, what's really cool is that she came into athenahealth, where there were already existing initiatives, and she's really pulling everything together. So, it was a really cool perspective to hear her talk about DEI strategies, the way she's supporting ERGs, and the DEI work, and really, we got into sort of how do you operationalize these existing DEI initiatives. So yeah, we definitely covered that.

(03:03): She's an incredibly smart, and kind human, and she also has excellent taste in reality television, and also she's a fast talker. So, just warning you, if anyone's listening to this at 1.5 or two times speed, you might want to slow down this episode. Jampacked with info, without further ado, here we go.

(03:27): All right. Hi everyone, this is Felicia. I'm here with my lovely co-host, Rachel.

Rachel Murray (03:32): Hello.

Felicia Jadczak (03:33): And we are super excited to talk today with our guest who is Allyson Livingstone, executive director of diversity and inclusion at athenahealth. So Allyson, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.

Allyson Livingstone (03:45): Thanks so much for having me. I love being in conversation with other people who are thinking about some of these issues and the ways that they show up in the world of tech, and I always leave with so much new learning, and insights from this, so thank you so much for having me.

Rachel Murray (03:59): Oh my goodness. It's a pleasure. And, I will just say, I'm excited to geek out with you about even just the first question, which is your journey, because I did take a little sneaky peeky at your LinkedIn, and I happened to notice that you were at my alma mater prior to athenahealth. So, I would love to hear all about your journey, and how you got into this work.

Allyson Livingstone (04:19): Absolutely. So, there's a circuitous route to this work, and I think there's so many ways to get into being a DEI practitioner. And so, my route was practitioner, academic practitioner. And so, after I finished college, I moved to Boston, moved back to Boston where I'm from for a year, thinking that I was going to go to law school, and I had no business going to law school, which is why I didn't get in anywhere. So, thank you, universe.

(04:47): And so what I learned a lot about an university was that I liked the kind of social work counseling aspect of professional practice. I met my first social worker when I was a junior in college. I went to Haverford College, and I had an internship one summer at a place called the Women's Law Project, and it sort of changed my life.

(05:07): And so, the Women's law project in Philadelphia, at the time, was sort of half law firm, half counseling service. And so, I had a great mentor there, moved back to Boston for a year, and then ended up going to New York to get an MSW. And I worked as a clinician for about a decade. I worked in outpatient mental health, I worked in university mental health, and I had a small private practice. And for goodness sake, I got pretty burnt out, actually. I loved the work that was going on with me, and individuals. However, I recognized that a lot of the people I was working with were coming in with issues of exclusion. They felt excluded from family, places of worship, employment, school, many different areas, and I wondered, what would it be like to actually change the conditions of engagement, the rules of engagement?

(05:59): And so, I started thinking even more deeply about organizational practice. My way to get there was to work as a faculty person. So I worked in a couple of schools of social work in Massachusetts, and that was incredible, and I was doing a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion consulting to healthcare, biotech, schools and school systems, and I found that even though I had a ton of influence around changing the ways that people engage with systems as a faculty person, I wasn't really able to change the rules.

(06:27): So, from that space, I moved into kind of a... My first full stop DEI practitioner role at Brandeis University, and there I met an incredible person. His name is Dr. Mark Brimhall-Vargas, and he is currently the executive vice president of racial equity and Social Justice at Fenway Health, this incredible, kind of global leading space around gender and sexuality, health equity. And so he, the first day that he met me really helped me to understand that the job of a leader, first and foremost, is to engage and develop the people they work with. I'd not had that experience in that way before. And so, he guided me, mentored me, coached me in ways that I could not have imagined, and really taught me how to work as a full stop diversity, equity and inclusion practitioner.

(07:17): I was at Brandeis for a couple of years, loved the work, and it really spoke to me, given my history in post-secondary education, and I thought I was going to stay in post-secondary education, as I was thinking about what my next steps are. And then this position of athenahealth came across my desk, and for goodness sake, if it wasn't an opportunity for me to get back into healthcare, and help to change the rules. And so, thankfully, I'd have this opportunity, and I've been in Athena for about three years now. My anniversary was in April.

(07:44): And so, started with majoring religion. Oh my goodness. My mother was so weirded out. So, I am a first generation Jamaican American person. And so, for Jamaicans, and Jamaican mothers, majoring in religion is not the way to go, unless they're going to enter the church or something. My mother thought I should be an attorney, or a doctor. That wouldn't have worked for me, either.

(08:05): But I loved this aspect of this area of study, because there were so many intersections within that framework, and maybe that's what partly got me into thinking about the ways that other identities show up together. But religion is this kind of interface of history, geography, identity, relationship, and faith, and it was something that I was really interested in. I'm not somebody who belongs to any particular faith community. I love the academic pursuit, but I think it was that level of inquiry in wanting to understand, "Gosh, how does this all function together? What is the historical context within which all of this operates?" That got me thinking about how to consider DEI strategy and practice.

Felicia Jadczak (08:45): I love that that's your sort of like, so early on, your first introduction to intersectionality, kind of like DEI was just waiting for you to get into this space. And I will say, Allyson, that I had to stifle a little on mute, "Woo hoo," when you mentioned Haverford, because not only did you go to Brandeis, which is Rachel's alma mater, of course Haverford is our shared alma mater as well. And then that's actually how we initially first met back in the day, so I was just like, "Yay, Haverford," with no one hearing it, so that's why I'm [inaudible 00:09:15].

Rachel Murray (09:16): And Felicia, I know you're going to ask your question next, but I just wanted to chime in really quickly, because I just absolutely love, Allyson, the connection that you drew between religion and the DEI space. I think it's beautiful, and gorgeous. I've never heard it before, and it makes so much sense to me. It's always been... I'm also not religious, but I am fascinated by it, and I wonder if it's for a similar reason. So, you just kind of blew my mind there, so I just wanted to say that.

Allyson Livingstone (09:42): Well, I appreciate that too, and I had no idea it was happening at the time. And so, I've had this, and I said circuitous, and I think that's the right word, I thought I was going to be a therapist for my whole life. I thought that that was my pathway. And then over time, it didn't work for me anymore. And then I moved into a faculty position, a tenure line faculty position, and I don't know how much you all know about tenure line faculty positions, but that's supposed to be the golden chalice when you finish a PhD for some disciplines. And I was like, "This is it. This is my landing spot. This is going to be forever." And then over time, as we continue to shift and grow throughout this life cycle, it didn't feel right anymore.

(10:21): And so, I had to be kind of open to that, because I was petrified. What was I doing with my life? I had this opportunity to just be incredibly... What's the word, have a lot of stability, and it just didn't make sense. And so, I'm so glad I listened to that, because something wasn't quite right, and I had to move through it, and learn more. And now that I look back, I can see how it all connected. But for goodness sake, I didn't know it at the time. And I think that's true for so many of us who are sort of career switchers. What does this all mean? Am I just not able to make a decision? Well, no, over time you're going to understand what actually happened.

Felicia Jadczak (10:57): Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so true. Somebody... Very few people I think have a straight line as far as their career. Maybe if you're in medicine, and you're going into the med school field and being a doctor. But for a lot of us, we do have this kind of windy way to end up where we end up. Looking back, it almost always makes sense, but it's so hard to make sense of it in the moment. So, I really appreciate that.

(11:20): And you mentioned earlier that you're a first generation Jamaican American, and I'm curious too, if any of that dynamic may have influenced your thought process, because I know for myself, as someone whose mom immigrated over, there's definitely a lot of narrative that I grew up with around what we were expected to do, or what kind of jobs we should be going after. And so, I think that sometimes can come into play a little bit, too.

Allyson Livingstone (11:46): Oh, 100%. So, my mother moved to this country in the late '70s, and had to figure it out in many different ways. One of the areas of privilege in that, is that she moved from a country whose national language is English. So, that kind of transition wasn't as challenging, but everything else was incredibly different, in terms of the ways that she encountered racism in a way that she'd never experienced before. And that's not to say that there isn't racism in Jamaica. So there's a history of colonization, and all of those pieces there.

(12:19): But she had to kind of figure it out, and watching that, being in space with that, and experiencing the kind of intergenerational transmission of hustle, and ambition, and get it done, is something that is so wrapped up in who I am. And certainly, it's not easy, and I think my personality type kind of connects with that. And gosh, who knows? Is it nature, is it nurture, I don't know. But there was a match there. And so, I'm somebody who has a lot of energy. I really care about DEI work in a way that is so tied up into my identity, that this is really the right role for me because it feels energizing, even though sometimes of course it feels really exhausting. This is my fire. And I think being a kid of an immigrant, it all matches up on that.

Rachel Murray (13:08): Thank you so much, Allyson, for sharing that. I really, really appreciate it. I want to dive into Athena, and the work that you've done there around the launch of the first ever company-wide diversity and inclusion strategy. I would love to learn more about how the initiative came about, how it was received, anything you could share about that?

Allyson Livingstone (13:29): Sure. So, DEI work was happening way before I showed up at Athena. So, I mentioned I've been at Athena for three years, and our first ERG, or employee resource group launched 20 years ago. And the ERG was our Athena Proud ERG, with a focus on gender and sexuality, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And for goodness' sake, was that 2003? And I think that was truly cutting edge for an organization at that time, even though in some ways that doesn't feel so long ago, but 20 years, and just think about how far we've come with regard to inclusion, diversity, equity, with regard to gender and sexuality. We have so much more work to do, but that tells you a bit about the soil, the culture, the community that is Athena, that that was kind of the first place to go.

(14:13): And so, when I showed up, there were a lot of really, incredibly passionate people running our, by the time I got to Athena, seven ERGs or so, who were really carrying the work. And what we came to realize, or acknowledge, right, in 2020, when everything went haywire, sideways, although let's be clear, structural racism, and the extra judicial killings of Black people and other folks of color, and other marginalized folks has been happening as long as this place we call the United States has existed, folks who were really carrying the work. But what I realized was that, or what we all came to realize was that we were kind of over-relying on our ERGs to drive a DEI strategy, and that's not really where it needs to happen.

(15:01): So, it meant that the DEI work wasn't as connected to our business as it really needed to be, in order to truly, truly be successful. So, my ERG leaders were really moving uphill. They were doing incredible work, but really there were a lot of headwinds in front of them. So, we had to get really honest, and acknowledge that we'd actually been over-relying on this group of folks to do this work, and we needed to leverage this role in a new way.

(15:27): So, I'm so thrilled this role happened. I know that this role came out of a lot of ERG advocacy and activism. I showed up, and I said, "Okay, we got to be a team." And so my job is to help support this strategy, and then figure out how to size the work with regard to what ERGs can be pushing, what leaders need to be pushing, what the entire organization needs to be engaging.

(15:49): So, to get started, the ERGs were on my team from the jump. And so, I engaged with them to wonder about, "Where do we get to begin?" I talked to a lot of people across cohorts, across division, small groups, huge groups, one-on-ones, we collected a ton of data. Because I worked for a tech company, my developers put together a DEI ideation space that allowed folks from across the organization to weigh in, "Where do we want to start? What does it look like?" So from there, we did some really good data analysis around, where are the areas that people are engaging, and where do people think we should go? And of course, I brought in what I know about strategy and we wanted to compare the two.

(16:28): Well, where it kind of shook out, and this won't surprise you, was around four strategic pillars. The first was about recruiting a workforce that is representative, right? Number two was around expectations of inclusive people leadership, because what we were finding was that folks had an intention to do the work, but the skill wasn't there, the awareness wasn't there. And we said, "How are we going to get this done?" Well, in part, by leveraging our leadership team as a channel for the work.

(16:57): So, recruiting, and expectation, and upskill of inclusive people leadership. And then the next piece is, well, how do we engage the whole organization? Because it can't just be about leaders, so engaging all of athenahealth. And then finally, reporting out on our successes, and opportunities consistently, and transparently. So, we iterated, and iterated, and got together with this kind of four point strategy.

(17:21): So, it wasn't overnight, obviously. It took several months to get there, and what I really do appreciate, that was really hard at the time, but was so right on, my CEO was in the mix. Whenever we would get to another place, or I'd say, "Ooh, I think this theme is emerging," he was really right there with me, posing questions, wondering of how it engages, and connects with business alignment, because we didn't want to do the same thing we've done in the past. We didn't want this to be some standalone endeavor whereby our leadership team, our C-suite was not totally bought in to where we needed to go. We couldn't do it in that way ever again, and my CEO was very, really consistent and committed to that, so he really pushed me to get it right.

(18:02): We finally got to our commitment, and then we had this incredible launch. Our CEO, Bob Segert, did an incredible video for the entire organization, and our organization is multinational. We have sites in the United States, and in India, so the strategy had to be thoughtful, consistent, and broad enough to really make sense for people, no matter where they were, in terms of where our offices are. He was very involved, and it was really helpful.

Felicia Jadczak (18:27): I love that, Allyson. There's so much to dig into here. We have so many follow-up questions that are, "off script," so hopefully you're willing to roll with us on that a little bit. But you mentioned the support from the CEO, and you also mentioned skills and awareness, especially not just for the whole organization, but for leadership. And I'm curious, because it sounds like you really came in, and brought a lot of this strategic focus together, while there already had been some work happening. Did you encounter challenges, bumps along the way? Were people really excited about this? Did you have resistance? I'm always curious how that happens, sort of in real life, when people talk about strategy, which can sometimes be a more high level type of discussion.

Allyson Livingstone (19:10): Yes, for sure. Oh my goodness, there are so many areas of important conflict. This work happens through conflict and it's really about how we stay connected through conflict when staying connected is tough. And so, several things. One is that one of the biggest asks of leaders who are interested in pushing forward in organizational DEI strategy is that you actually have to think about time in a different way. We're not going to follow the same cadence of time, in terms of getting a project done, if we're going to be inclusive, if we're going to center equity.

(19:44): It doesn't mean that it should take several years to get something moving or to get something done, but it's more about if we're going to be intentionally inclusive, and center equity, and diversity is part of what we're going to do, it means we have to call other people into the space, ask some questions, get some really hard feedback, make mistakes, try something else. And so, I said to my leadership team from the jump, "My biggest ask of you is going to be about time, considering time differently."

(20:11): And so I think that folks, and this is ubiquitous, I think to the work, they'll say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. We know we have to do it differently." And then you get there, and they say, "Oh, no, no, no, I don't have time for that. That's not a priority anymore. I have, "the real work," to do." And again, this is something that I've bumped up against in every single place that I've traveled. Why? Because we're asking to introduce a new framework, a new method of understanding, and people have all kinds of feelings about that. Ultimately, it's about change, and this idea that, "Am I going to understand this framework? What does this framework actually mean for me? Wait, isn't that for the people over in HR? If I work in finance, I don't need to talk to you about this, right? This isn't for me."

(20:53): So it was about translating the work, and differentiating it, and being able to spend time with people and say, "Okay, so you're a developer. Well, let's look at all the places that you run, and then we can think about the ways that we are flexing diversity, equity, and inclusion as you post questions related to, for example, an aspect of a product that you're trying to put together. If our job is to create really incredible solutions for practitioners at point of care, what do we actually need to know about that, given that our practitioners are engaging with the dynamic diversity of humanity every single moment, whether or not they want to?" Right?

Felicia Jadczak (21:32): Yep.

Allyson Livingstone (21:33): So how do we meet folks there? I'm going to need to ask you to... And I won't say slow things down, I mean add an additional framework. It's additive. Another place that people get kind of tripped up, they think that we move in a kind of zero-sum game. "Well, if I have to do the DEI stuff, what am I not going to do?" "No, no, no. That's not what we're suggesting. I'm saying that this DEI framework is just as valuable as that. You might need to shift and reconsider the ways you've been doing the other work, but this is meant to complement the work that you're currently doing, to make it even better, so we can solve some of the toughest problems in healthcare."

(22:10): So, it was about time, it was about how do I actually think about what all this means for me, and then how do I develop the skills? And so, that's where people push back, I think. "I can't figure out how to make this work, and so that means my job is to be a translator. Tell me about what you do, because you have the expertise about what it means to work as a UX person, and I'm going to bring in my expertise, and we're going to swap some stories. I'm going to learn some things. You're going to learn some things, right? We're not going to be the same when we leave this place."

(22:39): And that's the beauty of this. This is what it feels like. It feels like liberation. It's exciting, it's creative, it's motivated. You're going to feel tingly. It ain't going to be easy to get there. There's going to be conflict. Sometimes we're going to argue. We're going to disagree. But I never said that this is... I never said it's going to be easy, but I also never said that this is a kind of exercise in pushing you to believe what I believe, and vice versa. It's about creating something new.

Felicia Jadczak (23:07): Allyson, that was amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Just so many nuggets of wisdom that I am going to take with me, because I think it's a really helpful perspective, I think, when we're thinking about how we approach this work with these large organizations. Exactly, all of your poise are so valid, because it is exactly that, that pressure to feel like this is a zero-sum. This is something that is like, we have to sacrifice something. And so, I'm just really glad that you raised all that up. My follow-up question to that is, so how's it going?

Allyson Livingstone (23:43): You know what? I get to say it's going really well, and I'm so excited to say that.

Felicia Jadczak (23:48): Yay.

Rachel Murray (23:48): Yay.

Allyson Livingstone (23:50): So, I work with some of the best folks in healthcare, and I know people are like, "Yeah, yeah." No, no, no. It's truly, I work at an incredible organization. athenahealth has changed my life in so many ways. Did I feel like this in the beginning? Well, no. Right? I don't think any of us did. We were all trying to figure out, who is Allyson? What is she actually asking of us? And I was trying to figure out what does this organization... What does it mean? Are people really serious? I've been doing this work for quite some time.

(24:18): And again, I mentioned, I started out as, I'm a clinical social worker. I understand that building relationships takes time. I understand that humans unintentionally, and intentionally hurt each other. I understand all of those pieces. I understand the dynamics of human relationship. So, I always approach an organization with some skepticism, and a lot of caution, because what I found in this work, and again, this is ubiquitous, it's everywhere, is that oftentimes people will say, "We are going to do a DEI..." And then you get there, and they're like, "Oh, no, no, but not that." Right? "Oh, we don't have to talk about racism. We can talk about gender. And then when I say gender, I mean cisgender identities. That's what we can do."

(25:01): And I imagine many of you all have bumped into that where you go into a space with a different expectation of what the organization is actually really ready to do. And so it took some time for me to build some trust, and for the organization to build some trust in me. The asks I'm making feel very, very risky. This is about history, about ignorance, about trying something new. It's about, am I complicit in this? Yes, we all are. Am I contributing the ways that I could be? Well, probably not enough.

(25:34): It's about where are some of the ways that my bias show up, my biases show up, and I have to actually start to get honest about it. Oh, heavens, heavens y'all, that's a big ask. I want to recognize that. And I've said to people always, I'm saying, "I got to be honest. I am asking a lot from you. I'm asking you to think about the templates in your brain, the ways that you think about yourself and the world, and about your work, explore, get honest, experience some grief, and build something new."

(26:05): [inaudible 00:26:06] Who gets asked that at work? That's not the way I came up in the world of work. It was like you don't talk about your identities. You get the job done. And so, I appreciate, and I respect, and I honor that I'm asking people to actually literally to shift their worldview, for the purpose of solving some of the toughest problems in healthcare. It's that deep.

(26:26): So, we all proceeded with caution. And when you're doing this work in the beginning, you have so many data points swirling around, and you get lost in the matrix. What am I doing? How does it all add up? Sometimes you start to overdo it on execution, and tactics, because you're so lost in the abstract that you're like, "I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing right now." So there've been so many highs and lows to this work.

(26:50): I had to really figure out too, how to work with a team within human resources. I've never worked in human resources before. That's a whole other landscape, and language. So my team and I had to figure out how do we talk to each other? What does it mean? Why am I asking you to do these things, and why are you asking me to do some areas of work that don't match necessarily philosophically with our respective disciplines? So, all of those pieces.

(27:15): In addition, systems are funny. Systems are complicated. So, every single system is made up of subsystems, subsystems, subsystems, and then it goes down to individual people. I had to figure out, how do I stay open to really the fact that I'm engaging a system? It's not about one person. It's not about one person who believes X, Y, or Z. It's about all the people who make up the subsystems and the systems. And so, how do I stay high level? How do I move this from an... Think about this ideologically, and institutionally, and not get caught up in, "This person did this or didn't do this?" That's not going to be useful.

(27:54): So, all about to say, my goodness, folks, we are in a place where DEI is truly becoming part of our habit, our practice. I go into meetings, and people are already asking questions around, "Are we centering DEI here? Who is not here that needs to be in this space, because I know we're coming to the end of this design process, but I don't know if we have everybody at the table." And maybe we do, but the real part of organizational DEI is embedding that reflective process. Because if we don't post the questions of the how, the why we're doing our work, that's what we're going to miss out.

(28:31): People intend to do the right thing, but it's about getting people to a place where I don't need to be, or they're starting to look around, and wonder, "Did we ask all the questions? Did we center equity? How do I know? Have we been inclusive?" And you might end up in the place you started, but without that reflective process, you're not going to get where you need to go. I'm watching this process happen. I'll give you an example.

(28:53): So, about a year ago, we decided to launch divisional diversity, equity and inclusion awareness, action and accountability teams. I know that's a mouthful. So we call them AAA teams. So, every single division at Athena has a senior leadership team person running kind of a small think tank, action tank, execution tank around DEI that reflects their divisional needs, successes, opportunities. Because what marketing needs is different than what our product org needs, it just is, with regard to representation, with regard to thinking about the work, with regard to research. So, now I have this fleet of people who care about the work, who was leveraging me as a consultant, coach, guide for them to integrate and embed DEI in their respective divisions.

(29:43): Oh my goodness, if that's not a huge place from where we started, people. And not only do I have this group, at the AAA teams, we have groups of folks that we call mayors. So, every one of our sites has kind of this cultural leader who is kind of the go-to person you can ask questions about. They send out communications, and really care about their respective community based on region. They're now part of my team too. So, I have this other channel to leverage DEI as it relates to our regions that go across divisions.

(30:15): So now there's this major overlap, and of course I always have my ERGs and we're growing, right? We now have 12 ERGs. It's just unbelievable. We have ERG leaders, and this year we launched an ERG incentives and recognition program. I pitched it to our CEO last year, and he said, "Let's do this." That means our ERG leaders have a stipend, professional development opportunities, and we are leveraging the content they put out as engagement and development opportunities that are integral to what we expect of Athenistas, as they learn in grow Athena. Ooh, people, we are moving. We are moving.

Felicia Jadczak (30:53): I feel like, Allyson, just listening to what you just ran through in a very short amount of time, which represents so much work, I can see why Athena is benefiting so greatly from you being there, because I felt so supported by how you were talking about all this stuff, and I'm like, "Yes, I'm here. I'm signing on. I'm on board." So I can only imagine how that was playing out at Athena internally.

(31:18): But, you mentioned products, and that's obviously a big part of it too. And I think with healthcare especially, that's usually where I've seen, personally, one of the bigger, not conflict points, but maybe like pain points come up, just because it can be really tricky to manage that. And so, part of all this work is including the fact that Athena's been working on releasing product enhancements that are specifically designed to promote gender-affirming care, which can also be a big challenge, because not all healthcare organizations are quite there yet. So, I'm curious if you could maybe share a bit more around that. What has this entailed in terms of focusing specifically on health equity for your transgender, and non-binary patients?

Allyson Livingstone (31:57): Absolutely. So, this is just super exciting work. I could do this all day. So, a little bit of background. I also manage in partnership with an incredible, incredible leader Gillian Perron, who manages our corporate social responsibility program, and we have all kinds of incredible external partners, and our corporate social responsibility program is called Athena Gives, and there are three kind of pillars to that program. One is eradicating food insecurity, one is growing health equity and eradicating health inequities. And the other piece is growing represent in STEM for women and folk of color, and non-binary folk, and trans folk.

(32:33): And so Athena Gives partner with one of our external partners, and then with our internal partners in R&D to put on a hackathon, and a code fest. The hackathon's called Hack for Health Equity. And so, developers, operations folks, product designers, HR folks, researchers, came together to think about what do we want to do to really make a change in healthcare, with a focus on a current, incredibly important social issue, which is regard to gender, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And this is really about expanding the ways we think about gender.

(33:09): Oftentimes when we say gender, what comes to folks' mind are cisgender folk. We want to change the conversation when we're talking about true gender diversity, equity, and inclusion. Folks got together, worked really, really hard. We worked with external partners. Our ERGs obviously were involved, to center the narratives, experiences of trans and non-binary folks as part of the work. We wanted this to be a real model in DEI in, and DEI out. Because what we know as organizational practitioners is that diversity, equity and inclusion is an intention. It's a framework. It's an input, there are processes, and then their outcomes. You can't get to the outcome without really being, or centering DEI in all that we do as we try to work together.

(33:53): So, our incredible developers engaged with adding some product enhancements to one of our main products, Athena One, and it's really about making sure that when patients go in and work with their practitioners, that their names, their pronouns match who they are from top to bottom of the patient experience. And so, some folks were like, "Yeah, what's the big deal in a name?" Oh, there's a law in a name. Our names are one of the kind of windows into our identity. Making sure that our pronouns are set up correctly is part of such a deep kind of spiritual reflection about who you are.

(34:33): And so, what we do know is that when people go and meet with their practitioner, and their practitioner reflects a sense that they know their patient, they know what matters to their patient, they refer to their patient in the way that it's right from the frontline, from the front desk to the back office, people will continue to visit the treatment space. When people consistently engage with the treatment space, that changes health outcomes. It is that deep.

(35:04): And so we did this great work. We engaged these modifications, and enhancements. We are educating our clients about it, one another about it, and these are some of the ways that we are in the conversation around gender-affirming care. But it doesn't stop there though, right? We're constantly thinking about, so what's our next move with regard to centering health equity in all that we do? Because my vision for us is that we are the healthcare tech provider that is so well known, and is the leader in leveraging what we know about health equity to support patient care. I want us to be known for that.

(35:42): We're known for a lot of different things. We have a great reputation. I want us to move into that space, because my goodness, y'all, what we do know is that this world is changing every single moment. I want to be able for us to really be partners with our practitioners, and be thinking ahead for them, so that they are not burning out, and doing the work at point of care. What we know through COVID, through the pandemic, practitioners are leaving medicine. Who can blame them? I mean, I stepped away from my work as a clinician in 2010. That was long before the pandemic hit.

(36:16): Clinicians have been burdened by so many aspects of systems that don't really support practitioners to do the work for so long. People are fleeing medicine. Who can blame them? If we can create a solution, or many solutions that take away some of the burden for people having to do all of their paperwork, sure, but also to provide the solutions that reflect humanity as it is, oh my goodness gracious, that will pull me into medicine, that'll pull me back in.

(36:45): athenahealth is a real partner. We're not just a vendor. That's not who we are. We are moving alongside with our practitioners. We have an incredible government relations team that is out there lobbying for, and on behalf of practitioners. We... Oh my gosh, I'm so excited about this. Next week we are hosting Park Cannon, a Georgia State representative, one of two state reps in Georgia, and Sarah Warbelow, who's the legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, to help us understand at Athena, this incredibly complicated matrix of federal and state level policies that are directly, and negatively impacting folks, because of their gender and sexuality.

(37:28): I was with my teams, with my ERGAs like a few months ago, and we were all just feeling so despondent about the political landscape around this. I was feeling like I don't understand how all of these policies fit together. "When am I meant to advocate, and work in activism, given this whole swirl?" And then me and my team, we said, "Let's learn into it. Let's get something going, y'all, because sitting here and just being despondent, and this isn't going to be where it needs to get us." With these kinds of pieces of information, we can support our lobby work, and it will literally impact the ways that we design solutions to support and grow gender-affirming care. So this talk that we're doing, it's a great panel collaboration between one of those AAA teams and legal in one of the ERGs, Athena Proud. Y'all, it's happening.

Rachel Murray (38:17): Is this a public panel that we can-

Allyson Livingstone (38:20): [inaudible 00:38:20], sorry.

Rachel Murray (38:20): No, that's okay. I just wanted to make sure if [inaudible 00:38:22] able to plug it all right.

Allyson Livingstone (38:23): Internal to Athenistas. That's what we call ourselves, Athenistas.

Rachel Murray (38:25): Fine. That's okay.

Allyson Livingstone (38:28): But this is how we do the design work, because there are going to be folks who are sitting in that space, who are thinking about the political ramifications on patient health, and then we go back to our offices and we say, "Huh, well, what does that mean for me as I design a solution? Okay, let's go." So we feed all of that information right back into our work.

Rachel Murray (38:48): It's unbelievable. And I will just say, before you even mentioned anything about politics, lobbying, which I didn't actually even know that Athena did, but it makes total sense. My follow-up question was going to be like, when are you running for president? So it's really funny that you mentioned the political activism piece. Feel free to answer that question if you like. But...

Allyson Livingstone (39:08): Yeah, here's the thing with me in politics, I do like to have a good time. I think that the president can go to sleep.

Rachel Murray (39:16): That's true.

Allyson Livingstone (39:18): [inaudible 00:39:18]. No, ma'am, [inaudible 00:39:19] I can't be doing that.

Rachel Murray (39:19): President, or social life.

Allyson Livingstone (39:22): Yeah, exactly. I like to go out for a nice dinner, turn off my phone. Sleep 10 hours a night. I can't have people calling me from the war room.

Rachel Murray (39:31): Well, you do that, you get to do that after, when you get to chill out, go to Hawaii, do some surfing. Start a podcast.

Allyson Livingstone (39:40): I'm also not great in a crisis. This is another thing that moved me out of being a clinician. That's just not the way my body works. I actually need time. I need to think on things and to sleep on things. I do a lot of sorting out in my brain when I'm alone, and quiet. And so, again, it's just one of those things that I just know about myself. And so, I wish that that'd be something I could do, because I see it. I see how, in many ways, how much fun and how much I could affect some real change.

(40:09): I actually had a meeting last night with a group of folks in my community to talk about the ways that we can just think strategically as folks of color around kind of shifting the culture and the community that I live in. And what I think I can do, is think about what I have the bandwidth for, and start affecting change in my networks. My kiddo is going to start first grade next year, and she's amazing. And so, my job is to make sure that where she ends up at school, in that community, in our city, folks understand the central nature of centering diversity, equity, and inclusion, in order to support academic outcomes, and health outcomes for all kids. That's where I can hang out. That's the political level I can hang out in. And then I can go to dinner after. How about that?

Rachel Murray (40:56): And you know what? Maybe you start with local government too. I'm just not going to let you go from having this more influential aspect. So,

Felicia Jadczak (41:06): I think we need to put a little disclaimer that Rachel is on the board of She Should Run. She does have a slightly vested interest there.

Rachel Murray (41:15): The organization is literally designed to encourage women to run for office. So that is true. I guess that is that. But neither here nor there, I will ask my real question, which is, you actually started to talk about it, but I wanted to dive in a little bit more, if you had more to say around the impact that COVID has had on the work that you do, beyond what you've already shared?

Allyson Livingstone (41:35): Yeah, I think it's funny. We just don't know what we don't know. And before COVID, I didn't realize that I wasn't being as intentionally inclusive around engaging folks who had been working remotely for forever, for most of their careers. I just didn't know what there was to learn from those communities. So that's one piece. The other piece too, is that I started working at Athena in the pandemic. I had an onsite interview, and then so many things shut down. I got a computer shipped to me, "Best wishes, off you go." And so, that's kind of been my interface with kind of working at Athena during this time.

(42:13): But what I also have realized really most recently, and of course we can talk about a lot of the stress, and the anxiety, and the struggle, and the mood issues that have come out of this really odd experience so many of us are going through. I realized really deeply, and I thought I knew this, but flexibility and balance are two different things. Just because I have this opportunity, and privilege to work from home when I want to, truly, and we are back in the office as much as we can kind of manage at Athena, it's not mandatory, but we're really trying to make sure that we are redesigning the work, because not all the work has to happen in person. And we thought it did.

(42:54): And remember five years ago when if you would ask somebody, "Can I work from home?" They're like, "Oh, it cannot be done." It seems like it can. So, we have to... We're moving into this new world, and I have a really incredible leader that I work with at Athena. My manager, Brittany Podolak, she's our new CPO, she's helping us think through engaging presence with purpose. What is the work, and then how do we figure out where, and when the work gets done? Not vice versa.

(43:23): We are moving from it in a backwards space, so that's been really important for me to understand. So the flexibility and balance, I have this privilege where I can work from home when I wish, but I'm somebody... And I mentioned I'm a kid of immigrants. I will work all of the time. I sure will. And I have a lot of energy, people, so I just have it, right? I have a really, really hard time not working, and checking my work all times of the night, thinking about work all the time. And I was mischaracterizing flexibility with balance, and I started to get really burnt out.

(44:03): No, it wasn't even burnt out. It was anxiety. And you get to burn out after you have chronic anxiety, or sadness for quite some time, but I was watching it happen, and I've been burnt out of jobs before. And when you're burned out of the job, you can't go back. It's over. I've tried it. For me, I'm done. So, again, in my role as a psychotherapist, I truly got burned out, and then I could not do it anymore.

(44:27): And so, I saw myself doing that, and I had to really start getting some other ways for me to detach, and that meant giving it some air, and life, and telling my people in my world that, "I have a problem with this, with overworking. And so, I need your help in disconnecting so I can find my balance." Because it really wasn't producing great work for me. And so, that is a big lesson learned for me through this. I have to make sure that I'm managing this... I don't even know what to call it, this urge to overwork.

(45:01): And a lot of this, too, is about not just being a child of immigrants, but being a black woman, and growing up in truly majority white spaces my entire life. So my mom, when she moved to the States, moved to Brooklyn, and back in the '70s, that's where the Jamaicans went, went to Brooklyn, went to Miami, went to Toronto, went to London. So, my people were in Brooklyn, yeah. And then moved us from Brooklyn, left the person who was my father, that's a whole other conversation, with me and my sister, and moved us to the Southern New Hampshire in 1979. Let me just let that-

Rachel Murray (45:34): Oof. I'm sitting with it, Allyson.

Felicia Jadczak (45:37): Yikes.

Allyson Livingstone (45:37): Sit with that for a minute.

Felicia Jadczak (45:43): Yikes.

Allyson Livingstone (45:43): So I know that you're surprised, but Southern New Hampshire wasn't ready for a dark-skinned, Black Jamaican single parent headed family in 1978.

Felicia Jadczak (45:50): What?

Allyson Livingstone (45:51): I know. What? What are what are you you talking about? Right? And so, from a very, very, very young age, I was taking in messages that I was not smart enough, that I was not attractive, that I was not good, that I was not acceptable, that I was not right in many, many ways. And what that ends up breeding with all of the other pieces about being a child of immigrants and just having my personality what it is, I will work nonstop, because I've got something to prove, right? I have internalized racism, and we all do. That's where mine shows up. And so, this is something that I have to consistently really think about for myself, and I think COVID made me come to grips with it in a way that I hadn't before. Because I was like, "Who is this for?" And it was for white supremacy, quite frankly. It's so in me.

(46:47): So, in terms of the balance, I really make sure that I... I love to exercise, remember, a lot of energy. That's been me for a long time. I do a lot of vinyasa yoga, in a hot room, and I sweat, and I have to make sure that that is happening, because what I'll find myself doing is that I won't even... Yes, used to be [inaudible 00:47:08]. What I'll find myself doing is that I'll work, work, work all the time, and I won't get that physical outlet out. And I'm a DEI practitioner, so I'm constantly taking in folks affect as part of this work, and then I don't have any place to sort it out. And so, that's been very, very important to me, and it really came to a head for me during COVID.

Felicia Jadczak (47:27): I was just sitting here nodding along. I mean, first of all, you just keep dropping so much good stuff.

Rachel Murray (47:31): Yeah.

Felicia Jadczak (47:31): I feel like we need a part two just for me and Rachel to go back and pull out all the things you've been touching on.

Rachel Murray (47:37): Yeah. Yeah.

Felicia Jadczak (47:38): But as you were talking about the flexibility versus balance, oh, that really struck me, because it's so true, and I know that Rachel and I have been through the same struggle. We both also have issues with working all the time, and overworking, so I just really resonated with all of that, so thank you for naming that, because I think it's such an important dynamic that doesn't always get treated with the, I don't even want to call it the severity or seriousness, but I think a lot of times in the working world, overworking tends to get rewarded, and so it can be really hard to pull back from that.

Allyson Livingstone (48:13): Well, part of how I kind of got here too has been from Brittany. So, she is a leader who is fantastic, and outstanding, and as part of the way we think about how we do business, and how we do the work, she's like, "It is your job to make sure that you are taking care of your mental health and wellness. You have to do it."

(48:34): I was really listening to a podcast or a webinar the other day about leadership, and the person who was speaking, and I have her book somewhere, now of course I can't find it, was saying that if we have the nerve to be talking about leadership and we're not talking about mental health, we're in big trouble. Big trouble. Because what we will do is be rewarded for overworking, and then we'll get sick. Period. I cannot get sick from this job. I have a cute kid. I have a great husband. I like to have fun. No.

Felicia Jadczak (49:06): Oh my god, Allyson, I cannot believe how quickly time has flown talking with you. It's been incredible. We need to get to some of our fun questions.

Allyson Livingstone (49:17): [inaudible 00:49:19].

Felicia Jadczak (49:18): Yeah. So one of my favorites to start out with, which the only rule which people break all the time is it can't be about your work, but they break it all the time, so you could do you. What do you geek out about? What are you currently geeking out about? Yeah.

Allyson Livingstone (49:35): So that's so funny. Of course, as I was thinking about this, my first one is about work.

Felicia Jadczak (49:39): Always.

Allyson Livingstone (49:40): And so, what I geek got about. Ooh. So I watch a lot of reality TV programming.

Felicia Jadczak (49:49): Ooh. Uh-oh.

Rachel Murray (49:51): I'm be like, "Say more."

Felicia Jadczak (49:51): Go on.

Allyson Livingstone (49:51): And so, I am deep into the Real Housewives canon, if we shall call it that.

Felicia Jadczak (49:55): Wow.

Allyson Livingstone (49:56): And so much so that people are like, "Oh, I better go and listen to a podcast." I'm like, "Yeah, totally." Mine are all Real Housewives podcasts.

Felicia Jadczak (50:03): That's amazing. Oh my God.

Allyson Livingstone (50:04): Yeah. So I have a lot of factual information about the Real Housewives, and if you're looking for a DEI analysis, I want to start a podcast that is like the DEI intersection of all the Real Housewives, because it will be so lit. There's so much there.

Felicia Jadczak (50:19): Oh my gosh.

Allyson Livingstone (50:19): And there is sexuality, and race, and color, and class. I'm telling you, this should be my career.

Felicia Jadczak (50:26): I mean, okay, well now we have a future podcast situation with [inaudible 00:50:33]. Yeah.

Rachel Murray (50:33): Do you listen to Bitch Sesh?

Allyson Livingstone (50:34): Of course. I listen to Bitch Sesh.

Rachel Murray (50:35): Yeah.

Allyson Livingstone (50:36): Obviously. And I'm yelling at them, right? Because I'm just like, "You're missing..." I love them, but they're missing some really important DEI intersections, that I'm like, "If you just said this and brought this to your community, you could change the world, Casey, [inaudible 00:50:49]."

Felicia Jadczak (50:49): Oh my gosh. I think you need to get onto their show.

Allyson Livingstone (50:52): I know. I actually have a friend in common with them, my friend is a writer in LA, and they're actually doing a pickleball tournament together in LA.

Felicia Jadczak (50:58): Oh my gosh.

Allyson Livingstone (50:58): I'm like, [inaudible 00:51:00].

Felicia Jadczak (50:59): So clearly you'll be on their show really [inaudible 00:51:02]. Yeah.

Rachel Murray (51:04): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Allyson Livingstone (51:04): [inaudible 00:51:04]. And I'd offer so much good stuff.

Rachel Murray (51:05): We're putting that out in the universe. I love it.

Allyson Livingstone (51:07): [inaudible 00:51:07].

Rachel Murray (51:07): I will tell you, I just watched the first episode of season three of Indian Matchmaking, which Felicia turned me onto. I

Allyson Livingstone (51:13): I love that show. I watched the whole season in like two days and I'm like despondent. I'm so sad. It's so good.

Rachel Murray (51:21): It's so interesting.

Allyson Livingstone (51:22): I need more.

Rachel Murray (51:23): Yes. And that's sort of like, that's my jam because my mom is from India, so there's a lot wrapped up in there for me. And funny little super quick side story, when COVID first hit and we're all prime lockdown, that first summer, I think that's the first summer that that show came out, and my now husband and I went into our backyard in Medford, and we put up a white sheet in the backyard, on a string, and we projected Indian Matchmaking and watched it outside.

Felicia Jadczak (51:50): That's amazing.

Rachel Murray (51:50): And we were like, "we don't even care if any of our neighbors watch this. You're all watching it with us tonight."

Felicia Jadczak (51:54): That's amazing.

Allyson Livingstone (51:55): That's the kind of dedication that I appreciate. That show, I just learned so much. I feel so inspired, connected. I am a clinical social worker. I love narrative. My brain works with taking in story about relationships. And if that show is not my heart space, my friend, oh my God, it's so good.

Felicia Jadczak (52:17): And it's clear that you geek out about this. I can hear the passion. We're definitely going to have a followup episode on reality TV DEI.

Rachel Murray (52:25): And I'm here for it, because let me tell you, Indian Matchmaking, there's so much to dig into, again, from that intersectional DEI lens.

Felicia Jadczak (52:32): Yeah.

Rachel Murray (52:32): Past, like [inaudible 00:52:34] rhythm.

Allyson Livingstone (52:35): Yes.

Felicia Jadczak (52:36): Why is it the women are all like, "He's got to be tall, he's got to be tall, he's got to be tall." I'm like, "What is this?"

Rachel Murray (52:43): I feel like that's a universal thing, right?

Felicia Jadczak (52:45): I guess, I mean, they're really obsessed. "They're like, they could be a jerk, but as long as they're tall, that's what matters most."

Allyson Livingstone (52:50): It's an amazing show. But yeah, I do that. I think it's my way of escape. It's another way for me to access story, and I don't have to be the one to sort it out or engage it. But it gives me almost some weird way of sharpening my skills in a bizarre way, because I'm always analyzing it through that lens, but I find it so silly, and I laugh so hard. And some of the things that people say, I'm like, sometimes I'm like, "Oh my God, I wish I could say that." Right? It's so cheeky. Some of the things that Real Housewives say, I'm like, "I'm a little impressed with how rude you are."

Felicia Jadczak (53:20): Square. Facts. Facts. I don't know how we're going to get [inaudible 00:53:24].

Rachel Murray (53:24): I don't think we can follow up with any other question. I think that's it.

Felicia Jadczak (53:25): This is it.

Allyson Livingstone (53:25): I think that's fair.

Felicia Jadczak (53:28): That was the mic drop moment.

Rachel Murray (53:30): It really was.

Felicia Jadczak (53:30): Yeah, I was like, "I think that's it." This was so fun, Allyson. I'm here for a reality DEI crossover follow up episode. We'll have to chat more for sure.

Rachel Murray (53:39): Yeah.

Felicia Jadczak (53:39): But thank you so, so much. I feel like we just barely scratched the surface with you, but so appreciate it. Where can people find you if they want to learn more or connect with you in the future?

Allyson Livingstone (53:50): Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, so search me on LinkedIn. Allyson, two Ls and a Y, Livingstone with an E at the end, and that's kind of the best way to find me. I'm not on Facebook. I have a private Instagram. I'm not that chick. But yeah, so I like to keep it professional in that way.

Felicia Jadczak (54:06): Yeah.

Allyson Livingstone (54:06): That's where to find me, because you're going to... Most of my geeking out is work anyway, so that's where you want to get me.

Felicia Jadczak (54:12): Beautiful.

Rachel Murray (54:12): Perfect. Thank you so much, Allyson.

Allyson Livingstone (54:15): Thanks, folks.

Felicia Jadczak (54:19): All right. Well we told you it was a lot, right? We got into that reality TV at the very end, and honestly, we really need to do a second podcast episode with Allyson because there's so much TV to talk about, so maybe stay tuned for that. But, we also have a lot of stuff that we want to tell you about what is going on in our world coming up, because there's some exciting things. So I'll kick us off by sharing that. We have a 10-year party on the 20th of June, and I'm super excited, because it's an amazing space that I am obsessed with. So, if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, please go ahead and get them, because the space is limited. The space is really cool, and you will be very regretful if you're in the Boston area, and you did not get the tickets.

Rachel Murray (55:02): Yes, and I'm in San Diego, so I'm flying in for the special occasion, and I'm really just excited about possibly wearing sparkles, which is not something that I do kind of ever.

Felicia Jadczak (55:12): I think we need to just double click. It's not a possible, it's a yes, definitely wearing sparkles. Right?

Rachel Murray (55:17): Okay. There will be something sparkly on me, in some way. I don't know exactly what the... It will be a dress. I'm fairly certain I'll be wearing a dress, and I'm pretty excited about it. And it's summertime, it'll be fun. Tickets are almost gone. There's still some left, so you should be able to get one. And yeah, the other thing we have happening later in June is a webinar on combating anti-Asian sentiment, which is facilitated by ours truly, the wonderful and talented Felicia Jadczak.

Felicia Jadczak (55:49): Oh, it's me. Yes. Yes. It is a serious topic. I'm just laughing about the ours truly part. But yes, I actually just finished up building this webinar literally yesterday. I'm really excited about it. Of course, there's a lot of topics that are very near and dear and personal to me, but also there's a lot of stuff that I didn't know. And so, I did this really amazing deep dive into research. There's no way we're going to get to all of it in just an hour, but I'm super excited to be delivering that particular topic for you all. And so, definitely get your tickets for that. It's free, so there's no excuse not to attend. So, hope to see you all there. So what else is going on on the front?

Rachel Murray (56:29): One other thing I'll just mention really quickly, in July, our good friend coach Jen Walker Wall is going to be delivering a workshop on communicating your values and qualifications through a job search. She is brilliant, and kind, and so it's also, like I said, a free workshop. So, definitely come, grab a spot, hang out with us virtually, and in person, and all the ways. So yeah, always visit us shegeeksout.com for more.

Felicia Jadczak (56:56): Yes, and actually, on that note, because it is so many different heritage months, and so many different amazing days that are happening at all times, just a really quick plug. Our website is accessible, so you should check out the website, because it's beautiful. There's so much information, and it's very accessible as well. So, thank you to you, Rachel, because you've really been leading the charge on that front, so it's much appreciated.

Rachel Murray (57:19): I thank you. I will receive that. You're welcome.

Felicia Jadczak (57:23): I receive your receiving.

Rachel Murray (57:25): Thanks.

Felicia Jadczak (57:27): Well, on that note, thank you all so much, for those of you who are still on, for listening.

Rachel Murray (57:32): Thank you so much for listening, and please don't forget to rate, share, and subscribe. It does make a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work. So make sure to tune in for our next episode in just a few weeks. And if you're looking to further your own knowledge, and gain support alongside other incredible people, please join our free community. You will get a welcoming built-in support system grounded in the values of diversity, equity and inclusion. You'll have access to bonus episodes, additional resources, courses, webinars, coaching, and more. So, check it out at risetogether.shegeeksout.com. Bye.

Felicia Jadczak (58:08): Bye.