SGO Podcast Season 2 Bonus Episode: Full Interview with Ginny Cheng, Career Coach and Global Head of Talent at ŌURA

Felicia Jadczak (00:05):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the She Geeks Out Podcast where we talk with brilliant folks all about abolishing and equity in the workplace.

Rachel Murray (00:12):
I'm Rachel.

Felicia Jadczak (00:13):
And I'm Felicia. We're the Co-Founders and Co-CEOs of She Geeks out.

Rachel Murray (00:18):
This past season we focused on various aspects of doing the actual work of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. We're so excited by some of the conversations we had. We wanted to release the entire interview in all of its fabulous glory.

Felicia Jadczak (00:31):
Last week we caught you up on all things SGL, and since then the election happened. Now we're recording this before the election happens, so we're sure everything went fine. And that's how we're going to roll.

Rachel Murray (00:44):
Obviously everything went fine. What could possibly go wrong?

Felicia Jadczak (00:48):
I will not answer that question. Been there, done that, was burned. All right. Well, let's get into it. So this week we're going to talk with Ginny Cheng, global head of talent and career coach.

Rachel Murray (01:02):
So this was recorded in March, 2022, and since we're still in a pandemic and everyone's still trying to figure out how to work together in a variety of ways, this conversation is just as relevant now as it was back in March. We talked about hiring inclusively, pay equity and transparency, and how the openness to remote work has changed companies, in many ways for the better.

Felicia Jadczak (01:22):
Now, onto our chat with Ginny.

Rachel Murray (01:25):
Hello, Ginny Cheng.

Ginny Cheng (01:27):
Hello. How are both of you?

Rachel Murray (01:30):
We're so good. It's March 2022. Here we are, so we're doing it.

Ginny Cheng (01:37):
I love this reunion.

Rachel Murray (01:39):
I'm so excited for it. Ginny, you're definitely one of my favorite humans so I'm glad that we got this opportunity to chat. Just a quick intro. So when we last spoke, and we'll refer people to the episode that we did with you way back in simpler times, you were a recruiter for Zillow. Now you are global head of recruiting for Oura Ring. And I just will think we should just kick things off by just telling us your career journey, your story, and go from there.

Ginny Cheng (02:11):
Yeah. Well, I was trying to be creative and I was like, how do I just include some information that's not on my LinkedIn? So maybe I'll start there. I'm an introvert extrovert, so often I need to hide in my she-cave to recover for hours. And so who knows, maybe I'll do that right after. And I've personally been fascinated with work and travel, so I've often chosen companies that had that kind of appeal, that had a global impact. In fact, I was in Asia and Europe for seven years as an adult just working abroad.

(02:47):
Now, I decided that during the time that we had homeschooling situation with my 10 year old at the time, that I was not ever cut out for teaching, but I was still pretty good at coaching. So over the time, I've career pivoted three times, and talent acquisition and career coaching has been the longest journey. And so yes, you mentioned, I'm currently at Oura Ring, before that I was a recruiting leader with Zillow. And before that I was with Facebook on a seven year journey, and three of those years was actually in Europe.

Felicia Jadczak (03:24):
Awesome. So you have so much experience globally in the recruiting world. And what we would love to hear a little bit is, of course it's 2022 at the time of this recording, everyone's talking about the great resignation. We're talking about more than just one R; we're talking about resignation, reshuffling, relocation, reimagining. So much is happening right now and you're sort of right in the middle of it with your role and your experience. So what are your thoughts around what comes next with the future of work given where we're at right now?

Ginny Cheng (04:03):
Sure. I think first of all we're all part of this future work ecosystem. I don't think we necessarily signed up for it. But now to me the pace, how fast it's moving, it's really more like now of work. And companies and employees are both learning as we go. But I will say the companies that evolve to understand what employees need permanently is more important than ever.

(04:30):
And I think you mentioned it, high on that list is really the flexibility in how, when and where we work. So the workforce, which is all of us, we once were the complainers about life work balance, but we're finally starting to do something about it, and deciding what non-negotiables are. We still care about pay equity, but in general, many people, including me, would consider companies that offer the intrinsic values like culture, flexible work, contract work, benefits that suit their life stage, moving back and forth between being an IC or people manager, four day work weeks. Wow, how would that go? Part-time job sharing, equal and generous, mat and pat leave. And that's just to name a few. And even if that means getting maybe a little less pay.

Rachel Murray (05:26):
Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's really interesting to see how people's values are showing up at work and how employers are really responding to that. What we're trying to do is figure out, what does diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, justice, how does that fit in for the employee that is making these choices and saying, okay, I'm going to apply to 10 different places and I'm going to maybe have some spreadsheet of my values, and all of the benefits and weighing in and out? How would you recommend, and because you were already in this really cool space of being both a coach and being on the other side working for a company, how would you approach finding the fit as an employer to an employee, and also for the employee to figure out how they can find the right fit for them for the right employer?

Ginny Cheng (06:20):
And that is one of those questions that's going to be different from any coaches or even individuals. Because what it feels like belonging at a company, it may start from the day to day in your immediate team. Because most of us when we interview, we interview mostly with the immediate manager. We may have a cross partner that might be in our interview loop. If we're lucky, we get to know someone that's already working at a company. And obviously if you're midsize and larger companies, the likelihood of you having someone you can talk to about the culture and internal mobility, for example, what does it all mean, makes it easier. So it's really about collecting that information.

(07:07):
Now for startups, I think that may become more difficult. A lot of that is going to be instinct as you read about what's external, what are they showing up with, what stories are out there. And it's really not necessarily about being on the list of best companies to work for. I do think those have values, but they shouldn't be the only sort of, I guess, measurement you can think about, because generally not every company has the ability to focus on those things.

(07:38):
I'm going to say there's no easy fixes. It's March right now, it's Women history month. You'll see a lot more companies sharing about these efforts. Some people might say it's being performative, but I like to give the benefit of the doubt because I do think different size companies will be at a different point of the journey. And I would recommend honestly, any startup ensuring DEI values are incorporated in the corporate values or mission, it makes it easier to be imprinted and be part of their everyday conversations. And it's also easier to scale.

(08:16):
As a person of color myself, it's easy to want to go to places that have already an established DEI community, an employee resource group that you can be a part of. But for many builders one of those that are not there yet. That are maybe just starting to focus their DEI journey and we want to be part of that ecosystem to help us foster for future employees to join. So I think it really depends of where you are, where you want to make an impact.

(08:47):
I do think the foundational things for a company would be when they do commit to this, it means starting to enlist those values in how they interview, how they find passive talent, how they move beyond just referral programs if your current population isn't diverse. And being a supporter and partner with organizations that are already doing great work, like your organization. If they want to make that connection, it's going to feel more authentic because you have already built that relationship with your community long term and not because it's company specific.

Felicia Jadczak (09:23):
Yeah, I love that. And it's interesting because I do think that as more and more companies and organizations are talking and thinking and trying to really incorporate diversity, inclusion, equity justice into values, their mission, their approaches or policies, it's not a bad thing necessarily. But sometimes, especially at a corporate level, it can start to feel a little bit similar because there's only so many ways you can say that you support these things in a unique way, company to company or even industry to industry.

(09:58):
And what we know is that a lot of the overall culture and experience when it comes to these sort of topics, does actually come back to individuals and the day to day type of interactions. And so given your role not only as a coach but also as head of recruiting, I'm really curious how that plays out for you in terms of what you get involved with. Because you're obviously, I'm assuming, really involved with a candidate as they go through the process. And then does that extend once they join the organization? Do you in your role have any involvement with that? Is there any thought process around that bridge? Just curious around your experience and thoughts around that.

Ginny Cheng (10:39):
I'm going to start with, it takes a village. And then part of it is it's really about a handoff process as well. It's true that with recruiting, our focus is on talent attraction, but we also don't want to be the one to share things that are not true about a company. So I'm pretty open for any company I've been at is where the strengths are, where the opportunities are, just like you would do in any performance evaluation for an individual.

(11:07):
I would say oftentimes I will have information just to give people more of an understanding. Especially if you are applying for a company that maybe you know their product, maybe it's a startup, maybe it's like Oura Ring. But because there's not as deep concentration of what's it like to work for a culture, you're not always get that information. So I guess what I would say is it really depends, and it depends a little bit on your intellectual curiosity, but also how much the company is willing to share.

(11:44):
And each team's going to be different. But I do think it is the recruiter's job. Now, once they're through the process candidate experience, that definitely takes a village. Because it is in, let's say, recruiting making the final decision. But it is recruiting having the ability to keep our candidates informed once they are in the process, in the interviewing process. And then once they onboard, I would find many candidates still reach out to recruiting because it's not necessarily really clear when that handoff, or they just like a familiar partner.

(12:23):
But for my onboarding, it was pretty clear. They used tools and platforms that let me know exactly what I would need my first week, who are my contacts, what are Slacks I should join? So all of those things can ease it. Now in my case, they did also mention to me during my onboarding, all the different Slack channels that are part of the culture of a company. Women's health groups, because that's our focus at Oura. So I do think it's somewhat customized, but I do think in order to scale, certain systems and platforms needs to be in place in order to get the foundation. That everybody gets the equal sort of onboarding experience and then everything else is icing on the cake.

Rachel Murray (13:12):
I love that. And relatedly it reminded me of, and I put this in a little chat, but it reminded me of something that we see is that there can be sometimes a disconnect in priorities and goals between the recruiting team and hiring managers. And I'm wondering if you've experienced that or if you're like, this doesn't make any sense, everybody's always in alignment. But if not, I would love to hear some of the challenges and maybe how you view ways to overcome them.

Ginny Cheng (13:38):
Yeah. Two key which is ruthless, reprioritization is one of them, and the other is really empathy of where the business needs are and where the recruiting challenges are. As long as we get to those two conversations. The alignment may not always be there. The urgency to hire someone and hire in a very competitive market, you can understand it, but it may not still work as fast as you like. But I think the key part is the understanding.

(14:10):
Or if you a company decide that there's certain metrics about diversity conversations, we just have to make sure all of us understand that that is the case and there's going to be a balance to all of it. So I think that's how I would approach it. So personally, yes, I've experienced it. It's almost asking, have do we have the conversations. Not really.

(14:36):
Because again, each company's different. Many leaders come from other companies, so there might be already preferred partnership things that we have to relearn, get to know each other depending on the growth of the company. And at the end of the day day when I say prioritization, I do mean coming to a consensus that if everyone thinks their roles are important, someone will still have to be the decision maker. And usually it should not fall on the recruiting because they don't always get roadmap or trajectory to make those hard calls.

Rachel Murray (15:09):
Totally, totally. And just to follow up on that too, an example is, and this is just really very generic, it's like I'm the hiring manager. My friend Bob needs a job. He's great and I got a need. And I just want to make it very practical for people when I'm talking about this sort maybe misalignement in goals, because then that is how bias can certainly creep up. And the recruiting team is like, hey, we have all of these things that we should probably follow.

Ginny Cheng (15:43):
Those definitely happen. Everybody has a nephew or an uncle, but I think that's also part of networking too. Networking does include being family members with people in industry. There's nothing wrong with that. I think the situation gets tricky when you want to skip a certain process. For example, well, this person's perfect, I don't want to interview with other people.

(16:10):
So it's really more about the intention versus opportunity. I do think if Bob is indeed a great talent, there's no reason why we should ignore that fact because it may be a referral and it may be true. But the honest conversation, the alignment should be, we haven't explored enough talent, or why don't we have a conversation to make the process a bit more equitable.

Rachel Murray (16:37):
Love it.

Felicia Jadczak (16:38):
And you've just mentioned networking and so I'm really curious, Ginny, in your experience, one of my favorite things to say especially these days, is even though time is a social construct, we're still bound by it. And so even though it is technically 2022, who knows what's happening in the world. All that being said, are you seeing any major differences in terms of how people are looking for jobs or even making those career transitions given everything that's going on right now in today 2022? Versus maybe pre pandemic for example, like 2019. Are there any major trends or shifts that you're seeing?

Ginny Cheng (17:15):
Yeah. Because you talked about great R earlier. And my own word is actually, I think that if we have the mindset or aspirational goal about life-work balance or integration, which you'll notice I've now started to talk about life in front of work when I talk about this topic. And knowing what is most important for you, your mental health life stage. And you'll notice I talk about the different life stage because my 20s, my priorities were super different as to how I want to spend my time now and why remote work is important.

(17:51):
I would say in 2022, there are many things I see improving in 2022 than before. But the areas I do still see where we have opportunities include how we hire mature workers, usually referencing those 50 and over. We can do a better job on matching transferable skills to what we're hiring for. Because the truth is many of us don't just go into the career, or maybe we do go into the career that we study, and then once we get deep with expertise, we might realize we want to do something else.

(18:29):
And it really takes a lot on the candidate to figure those transferable skills, but it also takes companies to recognize how those skills can match. What are those core fundamentals that they can do this job and we only have to train them certain specifics, maybe a specific platform, a technology. So I think those are two areas I see more opportunities. And to me, they apply to everyone. They don't just apply to a certain target of people, but just really everyone that's in those categories.

(19:03):
To me, honestly, I know if people feel like they can power through online applications and they're still not hearing those kind of return or responses, that is very true. I've experienced it myself. In fact, I got my Oura Ring job partly because they were working with an executive firm that found me. So I didn't even know that that role existed. So part of that networking was also then finding out that my network also included someone that was working at Oura, and probably had some information about me to help the process and recommend me in some way.

(19:45):
So I guess what I'm saying is if had this been an online application, maybe there would've been a lot more applications and maybe I wouldn't have been part of that chosen group to kind of move forward. So even I'm admitting I would never go through just online applications without finding out if I have some type of network, even if it's like second degree connections or I'm part of a community that may have someone that worked there.

Felicia Jadczak (20:14):
I have a follow-up question to that because I love the realness of it, because it's the reality and we can be aware of that and name it. But are you finding, especially with your coaching hat on, are you finding people having challenges with building their network given the effects of the ongoing pandemic? Because I'm just thinking of folks who are earlier in their journeys or maybe even right out of college, who are not able to access the same kind of in person opportunities that they might have had just a few years ago.

Ginny Cheng (20:49):
Yeah. Everything I do or recommend is purely on the comforts from your own computer screen. So a lot of whether that's webinars, attending sessions, going to general assembly, they have free courses, all of those opportunities allow you to network. And even organizations that used to have in person events no longer do that. So I'm part of recruiter's network specifically in California. If we have future events, likely it's going to be online, which really allows more people to join.

(21:26):
Because even when we talk about San Francisco or Bay Area, it's pretty far. People would drive. And because of remote work, many people have actually moved outside of the Bay area. So I think the equitable experience of networking has actually made it better. And I can attest to that. Even attending or coaching at conferences that used to be in person and it became online, the way I can coach more people, the flow is better, the way people can network with each other in chat boxes, all those things. I would say in live events you probably meet maybe five to 10 people on average, but on online events you can be way more. And there's recording and you can stalk people afterwards. Honestly, yes, networking, a little stalking. Nothing wrong with that.

Rachel Murray (22:27):
Felicia, did you have a follow up to that?

Felicia Jadczak (22:29):
No.

Rachel Murray (22:29):
No, I couldn't agree with you more. I call myself a closeted introvert myself, so totally appreciate all of that. I wanted to talk a little bit too, I'm glad that you mentioned older folks and how companies can adjust to that. I'm also thinking about folks that are returning to work. I think we certainly saw a lot of folks leaving work and now maybe some are coming back, and how companies are really trying to attract that kind of talent if they are. And what they're doing to bring folks in and make sure that they have an environment that is conducive to that for those folks.

Ginny Cheng (23:06):
I used to have this list of all the companies that are nudging people to come back. This has changed a lot actually because now kind of opened up to remote work or hybrid work ideas. So I don't know what the actual percentage, but the way I would look at it, these companies evolve because they saw what their employees are looking for, they're seeing some trends, and I really commend those. It's not about setting policies that you want everybody to adhere to or you want full adoption, it's actually asking and piloting to see what's going to work in different companies.

(23:46):
I recently really like, there's a group of companies that are starting to focus on giving more breaks in between the years. So it's not paid time off, but company wide time off. Knowing that stressors of work and pandemic or end of the pandemic, there's still going to be some effects. I would say at least this year, if not a little bit more. So I don't know if I answered your question in that way, but that's what came to my mind when you asked that question.

Rachel Murray (24:17):
You didn't, but you answered a great question. The question I was talking about were people who literally left the workforce.

Ginny Cheng (24:25):
Yes. Sorry, I did miss that part.

Rachel Murray (24:28):
No, it was great that you answered that too. We'll absolutely be able to use that. Okay.

Ginny Cheng (24:32):
Yeah. Okay. So yes, one of the things about great reprioritization is yes, a lot of people decided or maybe in some way maybe forced to leave the job workforce for a while. So I think on the company side, the responsibility for them would be to normalize, let's say, gap in resumes or people taking time away from work however long it may be. I do think that, again, that is on the company side.

(25:01):
But for many of us that may take some time off, it may be for being a caretaker, some people are part of a sandwich generation, so they have kids and they also have parents they have to take care of, especially the last two years with homeschooling and all that fun. But also there are people who may not have a responsibly to take time off, but they want to for their own mental health. Maybe they've been working for many years since they were young and maybe they're trying to take some time to think about career transitions or pivoting, and they feel like they want to focus on that.

(25:39):
None of those should be penalized when they decide they want to go back to it. So I know there are companies out there that are trying to ease people in and I really think those are all important. But in order for those to be successful, it's the companies that either have to partner with them closely and make that commitment happen, or overall not care about people's gap resume. Stop treating like it's the end of the world that people actually are off or not working for a few years.

Rachel Murray (26:12):
Perfect.

Felicia Jadczak (26:12):
Yeah, I love that because I feel like there's been this really interesting shift where in the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of organizations were like, yes, of course, take time off, do what you need to do. We're all in this together. A lot of check-ins, all that kind of stuff. And now I feel like not every company, but a lot of organizations are back to work as usual and we forgot about the last year or two of us readjusting.

(26:40):
So I'm curious because we're seeing such a big trend with people saying, guess what, this doesn't work for me anymore, or I need something different or I don't want to be here. What advice do you have for people who are at organizations where maybe it's not totally toxic, but it's not great? Do you feel like people should try to be addressing these issues internally before they jump ship? Or is it just like, you know what, this is the reality, go where you are valued? What's your thought on that?

Ginny Cheng (27:11):
Yeah. You know how we say managers or maybe just in general, people are not mind readers. So that's why we have employee surveys and people are supposed to be anonymous and we'll say these things, but they're not necessarily specific because they're anonymous. So I do think what you just said is, yes, you do want to address this reprioritization within your current situation, within your current company.

(27:37):
Because maybe you know what's important to you now after the pandemic. Maybe before when you weren't a mother, you were able to take on more projects that were more time sensitive. Maybe you chose that because that was part of your interest, but maybe for your current life stage it's different. So that's why I talk about life stages a lot. I think companies just need to realize that first of all, one size doesn't fit all.

(28:03):
And as long as they encourage that platform, or opportunity for people to talk about it, essentially the first line of conversation that's going to help you decide if this company is really going to step up for what you need, is your conversation with your immediate manager. And if all else fails or you decide there are other interesting priorities you want to explore, it's not because you don't like your current situation. You just simply maybe been there for a long time and now there's different new companies that are popping up or opportunities.

(28:37):
Or maybe again, you want to maybe think about pivoting a little bit of what you want to do, you can do that. And for many people actually that means they might want to do more of a side project or side hustle as some people call it. The intention isn't to add on more work or responsibility in your life, but it's more giving you the opportunity to explore what gives you the flow, what balances out your interest and maybe what you want to do down the road.

Rachel Murray (29:08):
Love that flow. I'm all about it. So I've been thinking about this question around, so for an employee, a potential employee candidate to come in and if they want to get a really good sense of what the company's culture is like, especially now that we're all remote, I've been thinking about what are the kinds of questions they can ask recruiters and hiring managers to get those answers.

Ginny Cheng (29:39):
Yeah. The one thing I do recommend, I can't think of immediate questions, but the one thing I do encourage the people I talk to do is actually ask them, especially if you're getting an offer, the ball is in your court. To ask them to talk to someone who's been at this company, let's say, have seen some things like in the last two years, the growth, and somebody that they can simply just ask questions. And it should be deemed this conversation, again, more conversational. It's not an interview, it doesn't mean if you ask certain questions they're going to rescind your offer. But it's truly just to get and understand that.

(30:18):
And that could depend what you need. So for example, maybe you're so interested about this product and where the longevity is. And you probably sign an NDA, so you might want to talk to a product leader. You can request those things to just get an idea. Or maybe if it's a company that does have an employee resource group or an ERG that you're interested in being a part of, maybe asking if you can speak with someone who's maybe an officer or somebody who's been involved in that and to see how that works.

(30:50):
So the key is about asking. The ball, again, is on your court by the time you have an offer and you for making a decision, and that will give you another opportunity. This is especially probably helpful for, again, companies that are smaller and you just don't know yet what their company culture is like.

Rachel Murray (31:09):
Yeah, thank you. That's helpful.

Felicia Jadczak (31:11):
What about on the flip side of that, Ginny? So I think that there's so many ways that a candidate can do what you just explained. And I love that idea of being like, you know what, before I sign on the dotted line, let me get as much information as possible.

Ginny Cheng (31:24):
Which by the way, you shouldn't negotiate. You still negotiate

Felicia Jadczak (31:31):
Absolutely, negotiate. But on the flip side, from the company's perspective, do you think there's an onus on the company, whether it's the recruiter or the hiring manager or anyone else who's involved in the interview process, to be maybe even adding in certain questions to the repertoire to get at things that maybe are not so much job related or set related, but more around values. We talked a little bit about equity and belonging. Do you feel like companies are doing that or if they're not, they should be? What are your thoughts on that?

Ginny Cheng (32:06):
Yeah, I'm going to say they should be. But especially if you're hiring people managers or leaders because that's going to affect the tone and the culture and what they bring in. Now a lot of times for leaders that are probably more extroverts, they probably will have posted things on their LinkedIn about projects they're involved in, or organization that they're involved in, or things that they've been doing for their company. But that's not always going to be the case. So if you don't have that information, it is important to us.

(32:38):
So I'll use an example I think is important for companies that have to partner globally with different regions and countries, because those are slightly different. So asking a hiring manager their past experience, how have they made it, what were some of the challenges? How did they ensure how they partnered and made sure everybody had the same say, versus very maybe US centric or wherever the headquarter of the company is?

(33:05):
So in that case, it should touch actually the company values. So I'm sure many company values will include things like partnership or being a team. And that should be able to have them answer what are some things that they think about, how did they manage that workforce? The question I like to ask is, how have they helped their team, especially people that are no longer working under them. Have they helped them move companies, or even internally for internal mobility? So it's really about what they say of what they keep in mind for their team, to me that's important at least for managers.

Felicia Jadczak (33:48):
Love that.

Rachel Murray (33:49):
Same. All right, so I want to go back to this negotiation thing that you mentioned, always negotiate. So Felicia and I, we hire people and we've had lots of conversations around how we encourage people to negotiate, but we also want to be really honest about where we're at. We don't want to, quote unquote, play games, we want to provide a fair assessment. But we know that we need to encourage folks to negotiate for themselves because this is the system we live in.

(34:19):
So we struggle with the concept of negotiation as employers and wanting to make sure that everyone's treated fairly. So let's say you get an, which I think is probably very common still, even though women are encouraged to negotiate, that maybe women still are a little bit more hesitant to do so. How do you on the recruiting team handle that? Or you're just sort of like, well it is what it is? Or do you try to encourage? I'd be curious to know.

Ginny Cheng (34:44):
I find in my experience that maybe it's through my work on quite a few more pay equity focused groups or conversations I've had, and maybe because of that people feel comfortable in talking to me about wanting to negotiate. And I think you actually hit a really good point, which companies like yours that are already very future centric when it comes to offering, that you want to offer the best deal.

(35:13):
I do think the way you solve that would be salary transparency. If a company decide they're going to do that, and of course obviously with Denver and New York that's doing this, at least you have an idea of that range. And even when you explain why maybe they are not getting the top of the range, there's still a transparency conversation that doesn't feel, I don't even know what's the right word, it just feels more open. So I think that could be one way to think about it.

(35:46):
And also people think about negotiation sometimes too like base pay. So obviously there's different parts of it. It's the total compensation, it's also doing research based on your years of experience. So even though we talk about pay equity, you may end up in an organization where you feel like the pay isn't the same with all your coworkers. Because that's not what pay equity is meant to be, it's just saying within the range of that job, based on your experience, you would fall within that range. That's the best I could say.

(36:24):
I do know many companies that will say, hey, because we want you very much so, we're going to give you the best pay. So you can take it with a grain of salt because that sometimes can feel like a tactic because you really don't know. Again, without salary transparency, how do you really know you're getting that offer? It should never be punitive for just asking. If anything, it's a good practice.

(36:49):
Because think about once you get into a company, how many times will you have to influence for whatever reason, new budgets, new training, and new things for your team. So really to me it's about the muscle of asking and getting comfortable with asking even if you're not comfortable, that's going to make the difference. I hope that answers most of your questions.

Rachel Murray (37:12):
Ginny, you're a delight.

Ginny Cheng (37:15):
Thanks.

Rachel Murray (37:15):
It was great. It was totally helpful and it's such an important topic for folks as they're thinking about this on both sides of the table, as I always have in my mind.

Ginny Cheng (37:27):
Yeah. I try to encourage people to also stay right at their own company to talk about. No one has to leave a company to get better anything.

Rachel Murray (37:39):
That's true. That is true. That is such a great point. Well, I think we did it. There's probably 300 more questions we could ask, but I want to honor our time.

Ginny Cheng (37:47):
Yay. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate the time and happy March.

Rachel Murray (37:55):
Happy March.

Ginny Cheng (37:56):
Bye-bye.

Rachel Murray (37:57):
Bye.

Felicia Jadczak (37:57):
Thank you so much. Bye.

Rachel Murray (38:01):
Well, that was so informative.

Felicia Jadczak (38:03):
Yeah, I learned so much and I'm such a fan of Ginny's. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. Please don't forget to rate, share, and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work.

Rachel Murray (38:16):
If you're looking to further your own knowledge and gain support alongside other incredible people, join our free community at risetogether.shegeeksout.com. You'll get a welcoming builtin support system grounded in the